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Musicalfingers
Advanced Member
Username: musicalfingers

Post Number: 1202
Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 01:40 pm:       

I don't know what's wrong! When I turned on the lights this morning, Herbie's left eye looks like this!

What is it? How do I treat it? Sorry the picture is blurry, it was the best one I could get.His eye is very swollen and looks like it has a bubble of fluid circumventing the eye.
Out of insanity comes brilliance...or was it the other way around?
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Musicalfingers
Advanced Member
Username: musicalfingers

Post Number: 1203
Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 02:02 pm:       

Okay, after calming down from panic mode, I remembered Fish Palace. It appears he has popeye, but I don't know how to treat it or how he got it in the first place.

I did a 90% water change a few minutes ago and found a piece of lead from a mechanical pencil in the tank. Could this have caused it? Also, I don't remember if I used the dechlorinator last time I did a water change. I'm pretty sure I did, but I may have forgotten to.

I have Betta-Fix antibiotics, and another tank to transfer his friends to (two spixis, one shrimp), unless they are carriers (the other tank has a betta in it as well). Recommendations?
Out of insanity comes brilliance...or was it the other way around?
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Musicalfingers
Advanced Member
Username: musicalfingers

Post Number: 1204
Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 04:23 pm:       

*Bump*

I need help, people! I will probably be going out to the store later today, and since I have to bum rides off of people it will be one of the only times I can go! Do I need to get a medication? A container to put the shrimp/snails in? I NEED HELP!!
Out of insanity comes brilliance...or was it the other way around?
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Garrett
Advanced Member
Username: happiegilmor49

Post Number: 1075
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 04:51 pm:       

I dont think the snails will be contaigous.

Just get whatever treats popeye I guess. I dont which of the three blobs in your picture is the eye, but one of them is pretty grotesque looking. Could he perhaps have popped it (eww) on something?
I <3 the mods!
especially that loachy JP
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Musicalfingers
Advanced Member
Username: musicalfingers

Post Number: 1205
Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 04:53 pm:       

LOL, three blobs. It is kind of a bad picture...but his eye looks exactly like the picture of the betta listed under "Pop-eye" in the Fish Palace disease page.

What treats popeye? This is kind of why I was posting....
Out of insanity comes brilliance...or was it the other way around?
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Garrett
Advanced Member
Username: happiegilmor49

Post Number: 1077
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 05:06 pm:       

oh, uhh the main site says "Popeye or exophthalmia is a symptom, not a disease in itself and it can have a large number of potential causes."

So It looks like it's either bacterial, which i dont think it could have just popped out like that right away. PArasitic, which can be caused by "eye flukes" which could be the bubble in the eye? I really have no idea. I'd say go for a broad range bacterial fighter. But that's just a huge guess.

http://badmanstropicalfish.com/articles/article26.html
I <3 the mods!
especially that loachy JP
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Musicalfingers
Advanced Member
Username: musicalfingers

Post Number: 1206
Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 07:56 pm:       

I must say, this is the first time I've really been disappointed with this site. I had to call my LFS to get help for Herbie, and I will follow their directions since I have not received any others.
Out of insanity comes brilliance...or was it the other way around?
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Kim
Advanced Member
Username: kimrin

Post Number: 2183
Registered: 01-2004
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 08:21 pm:       

oh dear, how did that happen? that your thread got missed by the medicine guru's I mean....

I say stick with water changes for now. If you want to try a round of Maracyn II it won't hurt and may help but after that do large water changes every couple of days and just keep at it. That's what worked for me.

This is assuming your betta is accustomed to large regular water changes. If not then build up slowly to larger changes. ( sully just caught me on that one, lol )

One other thing Music, just in fairness... regarding your disappointment. Have you ever used the forum Search function? You would find a lot of former threads on popeye and I know for a fact there is another one on here right now. There is more than one way to get an answer.
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Michael Bryant
Advanced Member
Username: michaelb

Post Number: 2083
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 08:39 pm:       

bad timing Music.....you needed an answer right now, and the person/people with the answer was/were elsewhere. Hopefully you got some straight answers from the LFS. I used Epsom Salts followed by large frequent water changes to combat a case of popeye I encountered with my Pearl Gourami. In another case with an Angel I used Melafix followed by large frequent water changes. Both cases were a success....strange that the common denominator in each was large frequent water changes...lol! Hopefully you will not have to resort to meds, unless of course, they are required. Good luck!!

Look at this experience as a test of your coping skills. You needed fast accurate information from other folks and none was forthcoming. you had to deal with this on your own, undoubtedly somewhat stressed!! How'd ya do??

Don't give up on us....we're only human after all.
Many seek advice, only the wise profit from it.
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Garrett
Advanced Member
Username: happiegilmor49

Post Number: 1080
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 08:57 pm:       

cept JP, he's a loach
I <3 the mods!
especially that loachy JP
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Vicki
Regular Member
Username: plecogirl

Post Number: 166
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 09:25 pm:       

I'm sorry you didn't get the help you needed I saw your post but have no idea what to do and would be in the same boat should the same ever happen to me. I hope your fish is okay I know you care about him, keep us posted -k-
An individual has not started living until he can rise above the narrow confines of his individualistic concerns to the broader concerns of all humanity.-Martin Luther King, JR.
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Musicalfingers
Advanced Member
Username: musicalfingers

Post Number: 1207
Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 09:58 pm:       

My LFS told me to move the shrimp and snails, that they wouldn't transfer the bacteria to the other betta, and to treat with the Betta Fix that I have along with large volume water changes daily. I also think that the heater is broken, so I will be buying a new one tonight.

Michael, I may pick up some epsom salts just in case.

Edit: Michael, how much salt did you put into the tank? Like teaspoons/tablespoons per gallon?
Out of insanity comes brilliance...or was it the other way around?
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Michael Bryant
Advanced Member
Username: michaelb

Post Number: 2086
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 11:05 pm:       

music...for the life of me I can't remember and I can't find my journal, and I lost my documents when I changed hard drives....sheesh, what an excuse huh? I remember 1/8 tsp per 5 gal for Dropsy.....seems like I used much more than that. I want to say 1 tbsp per 10gal...but I won't!! Remember, that's Epsom Salts, not table salt, Kosher Salt, Aquarium Salt, smelling salts or any other kind of salt. Hopefully Dan will get to this, he will surely know! What's in Betta Fix anyway??
Many seek advice, only the wise profit from it.
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April
Advanced Member
Username: jumpingtadpoles

Post Number: 1170
Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 11:31 pm:       

It'a pretty much the same as melafix.... It acts as a antibacterial, like the soaps we use nowadays. It will probably help, but I would guess it probably was water quality, you had said last week he was behaving unusually, it may have been that he was already sick, sometimes we need to take a wait and see approach.
I hope he pulls through <3
Dream big, celebrate life, and never stop learning.
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Musicalfingers
Advanced Member
Username: musicalfingers

Post Number: 1208
Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 02:44 am:       

The other betta, Alexander, was behaving unusually. Herbie's been fine (well, relatively). I found a piece of mechanical pencil lead in the tank, and I'm guessing that's what caused it (whether by introduction of bacteria or poking in the eye).

Michael, if I don't hear from anyone by morning as to the dosage, I'll go ahead and use my Betta-Fix instead. I have both now.
Out of insanity comes brilliance...or was it the other way around?
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russ
Ancient Member
Username: rasaqua

Post Number: 3735
Registered: 01-2003
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 11:33 am:       

Music,

Sorry to read about the misfortunes of your Betta. I was trying to figure out how to respond to your "disappointment with this site" and figure that it must be just a figure-of-speech expressed out of desperation and concern for your fish. As Michael indicated, it was unfortunate to have to cope with this type of emergency on your own, then having options, but nobody available to validate them.

You indicated a visit to Fish Palace and also identified symptoms based on that visit. Perhaps other folks who read that in your post assumed that you will or have found suitable answers there and did not respond. In the Disease section (under Popeye) of Pandoras's site, there was an additional link posted, listed below. Did you explore this?

http://www.flippersandfins.net/pop-eye.htm

Health problems associated with our fish can have many causes. Far more often than not, the only way to truly identify culprits that caused an untimely demise or illness to a fish is under a microscope. Unless there is an obvious issue or identifiable underlying cause to a issue, the best anyone here can do is relay probabilities as to cause.

While many of us will attempt to 'enable' folks, if this is at all possible, the skilled and experience aquarists here will also attempt to 'impower' folks. Empowerment allows hobbyists
to 'act' on reasonable and assumable information on-hand, based on experiences shared (and already available) on this site.

Again, I can only assume more folks didn't jump on this for the reason indicated above. Some folks may have even assumed that an 'advanced member" may have acquired some empowerment over the time spent here. I was not available during the day and was only became aware of your post late last night.

Again, identifying the underlying cause of Popeye is the key to a coarse of treatment. I recommend reevaluating the information in the link provided above. If you have any questions about an issue(s) that doesn't apply to protocol(s) you may have had in place, please continue to update us on how your fish is progressing or digressing.



"For every difficult question, there is an answer that is clear and simple and wrong."
(George Bernard Shaw)
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Musicalfingers
Advanced Member
Username: musicalfingers

Post Number: 1210
Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 11:44 am:       

Russ, yes I was upset because I couldn't get help from the source I have learned to rely upon, and I was EXTREMELY worried about my Herbie. I love him so much! He's my little buddy, and I'd hate for anything to happen to him.

I did look at that link, but only briefly and because of that I didn't see much that was useful to me.

Even though I'm an advanced member, I haven't had much experience with disease (I'm happy to say!); most of my fish have been healthy and happy.

I started treatment with Betta-Fix today. I relocated the snails and shrimp to the 10 gallon with Alexander, did a 90% water change, and added the amount of Betta-Fix indicated on the bottle. I'll have to pick up some more though, I only have about half a bottle. I'll keep you guys posted on how Herbie is doing :-)
Out of insanity comes brilliance...or was it the other way around?
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russ
Ancient Member
Username: rasaqua

Post Number: 3736
Registered: 01-2003
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 12:46 pm:       

Music,

Because of early detection of your fish's symptoms, Bettafix may work in conjunction with everyday partial water changes. The active ingredient to Bettafix seems to be a natural extract from a plant of the botanical family Meliaceae. Yep, a 'Tea-Tree' extract. While it has reasonable antiseptic and anti-parasitic capabilities, I have read else ware on several occasions, that many Bettas may not respond favorably to this. But I got the impression that this information was ancillary as a result of questionable husbandry practices, but I suppose its possible either way. I would opt for isolating the fish in a smaller vessel than a ten gallon, if possible. That medication is going to get awfully expensive treating a single fish in a ten gal tank.


"For every difficult question, there is an answer that is clear and simple and wrong."
(George Bernard Shaw)
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Musicalfingers
Advanced Member
Username: musicalfingers

Post Number: 1211
Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 02:56 pm:       

Herbie's in a 2.5 gallon tank, Alexander is in the 10. :-) Betta-fix is supposed to be a less concentrated form of Mela-fix, which I've seen people here recommend (maybe not for popeye, but for other diseases). Hopefully it'll work! If not, I do have epsom salts. Does anyone know what concentration of them I should use? Can I use it in conjunction with the Betta-Fix, or should I stick to one remedy at a time?
Out of insanity comes brilliance...or was it the other way around?
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russ
Moderator
Username: rsaqua

Post Number: 2713
Registered: 01-2003
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 05:43 pm:       

Music,

Ah, thats right, Herbie is the one with the halloween mask on . I got the little guys mixed up.

I Can't say that epsom salt will not work or work for popeye, mainly because I have never heard or read anywhere that it will. But I will recommend that you not get 'hung up' on the idea of using it soley for popeye. Remember that it is a symptom that can have many causes. With each of these causes also goes different treatments. Treatments can range from chemotherapeutic applications to just a simple water change. I would still re-explore this link with more than a cursory read :

http://www.flippersandfins.net/pop-eye.htm



Hmm, don't know where the hot link ran off to, but it can be copied & pasted to the browser.

(Message edited by rsaqua on February 17, 2006)

(Message edited by rsaqua on February 17, 2006)
Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark....Professionals built the Titanic.
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flyingfish
Junior Member
Username: flyingfish

Post Number: 79
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 06:16 pm:       

Hi guys,
It sounds like everything is under control, thats good. I just wanted to mention. When I had my problems with the tank my silver dollars one eye started getting cloudy. I guess it was pop eye. I treated the tank the recomended dose of melafix and it cleared up before the dosing ended. I was also working like a slave to clean the water too but I do think it was the melafix, works great on the eye cloud and seemed to seal up Scar's wound quickly. Im going to have to rename him now because the "Scar" is gone. :-)

Oh yah I dislike salt as a treatment, IMO. I used aquarium salt not epsom salt but I will never do the salt thing again regardless of the flavor.
I surf fish for stripers
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Musicalfingers
Advanced Member
Username: musicalfingers

Post Number: 1213
Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 09:11 pm:       

Thanks guys! I'll keep you posted!
Out of insanity comes brilliance...or was it the other way around?
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russ
Ancient Member
Username: rasaqua

Post Number: 3737
Registered: 01-2003
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 09:56 pm:       


"For every difficult question, there is an answer that is clear and simple and wrong."
(George Bernard Shaw)
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colleen
Regular Member
Username: swirl360

Post Number: 369
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 10:56 pm:       

At my work, we have an older Japanese lady who takes care of the bettas. She swears buy BettaFish if we get any in that have fungus on them. We had one come in a few weeks ago that was covered in white fuzzy fungus. After about 3 days of treating with bettafix, and total water changes each day, it was back to normal and eating!
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cindy
Ancient Plus
Username: cindy

Post Number: 9187
Registered: 05-2003
Posted on Saturday, February 18, 2006 - 10:32 am:       

I'll point out that this is a forum, not chat. We have a library, with great advice for popeye:


...and a link to chat on top of the Private forum, for the impatient.

All the Fish Health gurus work full time and you posted in the middle of the day. Bumping after 2 and a half hours and criticizing us after six is not the best way to get what you want from us. If you won't use chat or the Badman's Best, or search the site for all the previous posts about popeye, then go to www.bettatalk.com or use Google.

http://badmanstropicalfish.com/species-gallery/cyprinid/conchonius.html

"The only ones among you who will be really happy are those who will have sought and found how to serve." --- Albert Schweitzer

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Vicki
Regular Member
Username: plecogirl

Post Number: 189
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Saturday, February 18, 2006 - 01:21 pm:       

Hey musical I hope Herbie is getting better. You said that Alexander was acting weird do you think that he is getting sick to or is just reacting to the new temporary roomates?
Youth would be an ideal state if it came a little later in life.
- Herbert Henry Asquith
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Musicalfingers
Advanced Member
Username: musicalfingers

Post Number: 1216
Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 01:22 am:       

Alex was acting funny earlier in the week, and I turned the temperature in the tank down and he's doing just great! He even nibbled my finger! Thanks for asking!

As for Herbie, his eye doesn't look any better yet. In fact, it looks a little worse...I'm kind of worried, but I realize that it's only the second day of treatment. I'm on a 90% water change/medicate tank daily regimen for a week.
Out of insanity comes brilliance...or was it the other way around?
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Vicki
Regular Member
Username: plecogirl

Post Number: 212
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 05:11 pm:       

I'm glad Alex is alright and will keep my fingers crossed for Herbie
Youth would be an ideal state if it came a little later in life.
- Herbert Henry Asquith
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Musicalfingers
Advanced Member
Username: musicalfingers

Post Number: 1230
Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 11:09 am:       

Good news! It's day three, and Herbie's eye has gone from balloon/bubble to swollen looking. It's about half the size it was! Yay!
Out of insanity comes brilliance...or was it the other way around?
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russ
Ancient Member
Username: rasaqua

Post Number: 3774
Registered: 01-2003
Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 03:40 pm:       

Music,

that is good news. Keep doing what you are doing
"For every difficult question, there is an answer that is clear and simple and wrong."
(George Bernard Shaw)
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Musicalfingers
Advanced Member
Username: musicalfingers

Post Number: 1239
Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 02:46 am:       

Bad news, I think...

The ring around Herbie's eye (what would typically be the visible part of an eyelid) is white. Is this bad?

His eye looks a little more bubbly again today; I think the light may be bothering him (I had the light off over the weekend) so I will keep it off during his treatment and see if that helps.
Out of insanity comes brilliance...or was it the other way around?
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Musicalfingers
Advanced Member
Username: musicalfingers

Post Number: 1286
Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 02:04 am:       

Good news now! His eye is healed up, and i don't see the white ring around it. More bad news, he has a little spot on his head that looks like exposed flesh or something. I don't know how he would have torn it, but oh well...i'll keep the water clean and hopefully he'll be just fine!
Out of insanity comes brilliance...or was it the other way around?
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Amber Killian
Regular Member
Username: stampingchick

Post Number: 152
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 02:24 am:       

Musical, I hope he is doing well! Here is what bettatalk.com has to say about popeye in their disease section:
uGENERAL INFO:

If you always keep your betta’s water very clean, he is not very likely to get Popeye. Popeye is a bacterial infection usually caused by poor water condition (in other words filthy water because you were too darn lazy to get off the couch and attend to your betta!!!). but popeye can also be the tip of the iceberg, the external sign that something inside Mr. Betta is going very wrong. For example, tuberculosis will sometimes result in popeye. In that case, the popeye may not be curable or even if it gets better the fish will die (because tuberculosis is not curable and always kills its host). In short the fish will have died, not of the popeye itself, but because of the more serious disease that triggered it.

uSYMPTOMS:
One or both of Mr. Betta’s eyes start bulging out. In about 2 to 7 days the eye might look so grotesque you will be afraid to look at your betta. Casimodo on a bad day will look more attractive then your betta at that point!! Please do not destroy your betta! In many cases, the bettas make a full recovery from it and look normal again, as if nothing had happened. Only some of the popeye cases are caused by the terminal diseases mentioned above and will result in your betta dying. The rest will heal nicely if caught early and treated aggressively (see below). During outbreak, betta may be less active, may stop eating.

uTREATMENT:
As I said, popeye is usually not fatal and Mr. Betta will often fully recover. On occasion he may lose an eye. But if you catch it right away, he should be fine. Immediately do a full water change. Keep his water very clean, changing it every third day. After putting him in clean water, add the antibiotic Ampicillin (included in our Betta First Aid Kit) to his water. This medication comes in capsules. A full capsule usually treats 10 gal of water. So for a 1/2 gallon of water, open the capsule and take the right proportion of powder and sprinkle on jar water. You may steer gently with a disposable plastic spoon. This is a white powder and will not affect the color of the water. Do not overmedicate! Once Betta’s eyes are back to normal, keep treating for one more week (just to be sure) and then stop the medication. And keep his water clean from now on darn it!!

Hopefully you don't need this info any more, but it may still help, so I thought I would post it.
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Musicalfingers
Advanced Member
Username: musicalfingers

Post Number: 1290
Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 08:59 am:       

LOL Amber. I do keep his tank very clean, but I found a piece of mechanical pencil lead in the tank how the heck did that get in there? Anyway, i think that may have been what triggered it. He seems fine now, and he even has a brig buddy back in the tank, which seems to make him happier.
Out of insanity comes brilliance...or was it the other way around?
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Gopi
Advanced Member
Username: gopi

Post Number: 1656
Registered: 01-2004
Posted on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 10:07 am:       

Music...talk about something weird in a pin. I was cleaning one of my lab tanks awhile back and got stuck with a dissecting pin?? They hadn't been used in that room for about 6 months...

Pencil lead is just graphite carbon. I don't think that would cause popeye unless there was something else on the lead or maybe he got poked with it and had an open wound that got infected?
There! You have a bigger tank! Will you stop plotting my death now??
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Musicalfingers
Advanced Member
Username: musicalfingers

Post Number: 1293
Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 11:49 am:       

Ouch! Yeah, I have the feeling he poked his eye on it. He's not a well fish (has swim bladder problems) so he lies on the bottom of the tank most of the time, sometimes with his face on its side, so it wouldn't surprise me if he just stuck his eye into the pencil lead that was poking up out of the gravel.
Out of insanity comes brilliance...or was it the other way around?
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Vicki
Junior Member
Username: plecogirl

Post Number: 12
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 11:55 am:       

I'm glad to hear he's doing better
Youth would be an ideal state if it came a little later in life.
- Herbert Henry Asquith
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Musicalfingers
Advanced Member
Username: musicalfingers

Post Number: 1296
Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 02:15 pm:       

Yup, he's back to his normal old grumpy self! :-) I call him the grumpy old man...you should see the faces he makes at me if I've forgotten to feed him!
Out of insanity comes brilliance...or was it the other way around?
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