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cathy
Junior Member
Username: cathys

Post Number: 12
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 12:29 pm:       

I probably should've posted over here last night. I posted in Beginner Freshwater.

http://badmanstropicalfish.com/discus/messages/16/64962.html?1142823825

Everyone seemed okay this morning. I just want to ask about the pale fish. The one that died was not pale, he was a nice looking neon. But I have one pale one (the red is pale). He was the one that I thought was starting to swim funny, but then seemed okay. This morning he seemed fine.

Could he have Neon Tetra disease? What do I really need to look for to know if I need to get him out of there?

Also, I really need someone to read that post and comment on my water condition questions.

Thanks
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Joan
Junior Member
Username: alwayslearning

Post Number: 12
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 07:06 pm:       

Cathy, I just posted to you in the other thread asking how everything was going. I really don't know anything about neon tetra disease although I seem to recall others on here talking about it. Hopefully someone else more knowledgeable than me on the subject will get back with you. How are your water readings now?
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cathy
Junior Member
Username: cathys

Post Number: 13
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 10:17 pm:       

Hi Joan. Thanks so much for asking. The fishies seem okay. They school together and eat and I don't think the one was as pale today. I haven't done the tests today. I probably will late right before bed. No one else is answering - maybe I asked too many questions in one post.

I'll reply again here later when I do the tests. I will probably be working from home tomorrow - we're supposed to get hit with a winter storm tonight (between Cincinnati and Dayton)! So, I'll be able to watch the little guys all day.

:-)

Thanks again!
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molly b
Junior Member
Username: molly

Post Number: 14
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 11:12 pm:       

I am no expert, but here is what I have learned in a few months here:
Perhaps:

Tank was not completely cycled- and neons are pretty sensitive, so can be a bad combo.

Check heater- ones that are inaccurate or overheat: that seems to be a fairly common thing to break down, according to other posts I have read.

Maybe go back to the store and look in their tank- I once bought some loaches, then within a few days they were floating and/or dying. I went back to the store, and all of theirs were also floating and dying! I suppose that sometimes there can be a bad batch??

Not a solution, but something to ponder??
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russ
Ancient Member
Username: rasaqua

Post Number: 3919
Registered: 01-2003


Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 11:38 pm:       

Hi Cathy,

I do not believe your neons( at least the one you just mentioned) have contracted Neon Tetra disease. This is a very debilitating disease. Fish do not get better. They only get worst before their eventual demise. I can't discount that this may be a possibility though. But now that I probably scared the be-geebies out of you, I'll try to calm things down a bit with what I believe may have occurred/happened to your fish.

I think that the acclimation process did your first one in. Neons seemed to have been deemed sensitive fish in newly set up tanks or introductions. If the source of the neons are good, then I personally don't buy that. While 1ppm nitrites is certainly not an ideal compound to have floating in one's water, that amount will not cause the demise of a neon or most any fish.

In your other post, you did not mention pH of your water. While nitrite toxicity is not pH governed the same as in ammonia, different fish need different adjustment times to pH. I don't think 20 minutes and a half bagful of your tank water was enough to effect a favorable acclimation of all your neons. Fish must maintain a relatively constant pH within their blood.

Chances that a fish's internal pH being the same as the newly surrounding water being introduced to are rare. But, fish do have the capacity, through osmosis, to regulate this to degree. Again, some fish can do this within a wider range than others. I don't know what that range is with neons, but I suspect, with more farm breeding than wild collections, this range may have diminished some. In the wild, they are used to fairly rapid climate changes, which, in-turn, affect the temperature and pH of the water. This generally occurs during the rainy season, where their normal areas become overly flooded.

Also, in your other post, you mentioned something about not having nitrites registering in your tank after a reasonable set up period. I couldn't locate your post where you first indicated that.

So, lets go back to acclimation. You had a 'cycling' tank with reasonably healthy neons. You obtained additional neons after an assurance that your tank was prepared to receive them. The store associate thought it prudent to exchange some that 'didn't look well' in the bag after capture, then proceed to exchange them (clue).

Not totally discounting the amount of time these fish were in the bag prior to you first opening it, or the temp and water pH in the shop tank,(more possible clues), there is the possibility of ammonia and CO2 build up inside the bag. Granted, these are tiny fish, but there can be a whole bunch of variables that come into play here.

The new fish bag was then opened. Remember those variables mentioned above? Bag gets opened, CO2 is allowed to escape causing the water pH inside the bag to rise. This causes any amount of ammonia, also produced by the fish, to become more toxic. You didn't indicate any type of water exchange, just the addition of tank water. While this may dilute any ammonia accumulation, it does not negate it. (Another possible clue).

The bag was then floated inside the tank to allow bag water temps to equal tank water temps. (Side note) Now this may not be immediately related to the issue on-hand, but it goes towards general acclimation processes. I would never recommend placing a fish bag in your main tank. All kinds of nasties could be attached to it and transfer to your tank water. Then, the fish were Ďpouredí out of the bag, into a waiting net, then subsequently transferred to the main tank.

Bottom line....Iím going with acclimation stress on the fish,and the possibilty they may have been stressed in the shop tank also.

As to your water parameter issue, Itís a bit more difficult to pin down. It could be from a mini-cycle from the addition of the new fish. When you post your parameters tomorrow, please include pH also.





(Message edited by rsaqua on March 20, 2006)

(Message edited by rsaqua on March 20, 2006)
"For every difficult question, there is an answer that is clear and simple and wrong."
(George Bernard Shaw)
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cathy
Junior Member
Username: cathys

Post Number: 14
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 09:52 am:       

Molly, thanks, good suggestions. I will keep an eye on the heater and Iím going to compare the tank thermometer reading to the floater thermometer I used on the water I was adding. And, you are right, I will run over to the pet store and take a good look at all their neons. Thanks.

Russ, okay, letís assume no one has Neon Tetra disease. Ha! I was freaking out the other day and now Iím going to pretend all is well.

As far as acclimating goes, I have read so many different methods, just on this forum, that I have no clue what to do really. I only live about 1 or 2 minutes from Petsmart. So, they double bagged the fish with air in there and I checked out and then drove straight home. I thought about the bag not being clean, but I had read several postings that said to float it in the tank to get the temperature the same. I didnít open it for the first 20 min. But then I opened it and added water and all.

So, do you have a recommended way to acclimate neons? How do I get their temp the same if I donít float the bag? Iím guessing I should get a 5 gal QT tank? Should I open the bag right away when I get them home? And then I need to take water out of their bag and then add tank water? Keep repeating this for how long?

Petsmart squirted some conditioner in the bag with the fish. Should I tell them to not do that?

Here are my water readings today:
pH - 7.8
ammonia - 0
nitrate Ė less than 5
nitrite Ė I think 2.0. I have the hardest time reading this one. The color just doesnít seem to match the ones on the card.
Temp Ė 78

I last did a water change Saturday, 50%, before I added the new fish Sunday.

By the way, I might stay at 9 neons for now and add some guppies when my tank is ready. But I do want to keep a nice little school of neons.

Thanks very much, Russ!
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russ
Ancient Member
Username: rasaqua

Post Number: 3922
Registered: 01-2003


Posted on Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 11:11 am:       

Cathy,

Here is a very good method of introducing new fish that Dan recommended in this post just this morning (need to scroll down a bit):

http://badmanstropicalfish.com/discus/messages/4991/64984.html?1142955113

The only thing I do different from those recommendations is the use of Novaqua and Amquel instead Ammo Lock (which was indicated as an example)
"For every difficult question, there is an answer that is clear and simple and wrong."
(George Bernard Shaw)
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cathy
Junior Member
Username: cathys

Post Number: 15
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 11:26 am:       

Okay, I emailed all this to myself. I will try that next time.

What do you think about my nitrites? Still okay? Is 50% water change a week okay?
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