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Kristin
Regular Member
Username: k_house

Post Number: 576
Registered: 01-2003
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 11:41 am:       

I ordered some Apistos from an lfs (not my usual lfs but one that was close to work) back in December and they finally got them in 2 weeks ago. Well, they received 2 pairs of Agassizi and 1 pair of Hongsloi. I went to the store a couple days after the fish arrived (Thursday) and already 1 male Agassizi and 1 female Hongsloi had died. I purchased all the rest. I put the 3 Agassizi in one tank and the 1 Hongsloi in another. Friday I lost one female Agassizi, Saturday I lost the male Agassizi. The Hongsloi was doing great but seemed lonely so on Sunday I put the 1 remaining female Agassizi in with the Hongsloi. Last night (Wednesday) the Hongsloi died. And I can't seem to find the last remaining female Agassizi.

What the heck is going on???

The lfs said they don't know whether the Apistos are wild-caught or tank raised. (They seem to be completely ignorant about freshwater fish.) They don't offer refunds or store credits, only same fish replacement. Well, I'm reluctant (to say the least) about getting anymore Apistos from them but I also hate to be out almost $70.

From everything I've read, Apistos aren't that hard a fish to keep. And my tanks are well-established with tons of live plants. My pH is always slightly low (6.6) but all of my other fish handle it just fine. Even the lfs said the low pH shouldn't be a problem and ammonia is zero.
"No day is so bad that a wet, sloppy kiss can't fix." - the dog
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Shari
Ancient Plus
Username: shari

Post Number: 5452
Registered: 06-2003
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 11:49 am:       

K, that stinks...Have you discussed this with the OWNER of the store? It's possible they will be more compasionate but ya never know. $70 is a lot of money...at least for me.

I've never kept those Apistos, but I would have to assume they were never healthy considering the ones that died before you even got them.

Sorry I can't help more then that.
My Fish Tanks Are SPREADING!!
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flyingfish
Junior Member
Username: flyingfish

Post Number: 63
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 03:13 pm:       

If the lfs say they dont know where their fish are from they are lying. If they dont know specifics about the source of their livestock then they are NOT reputable IMO. I would find a breeder that specializes in Apistos. Sorry to hear about your loss. I would have to agree with Shari on the fishes health from the get go. Dont worry to much about why they died and start worrying about how your going to get reimbursed. Dont overlook any problems with your existing habitat just dont loose sleep or blame yourself for the fish deaths because its probably not under your control. Hope that helps.
I surf fish for stripers
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dan
Moderator
Username: dan

Post Number: 6526
Registered: 01-2003
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 05:21 pm:       

but for a few species of Apistogramma, this is a low pH, low TDS fish. whether wild caught or tank spawned, they're most likely taken from the specific water chemistry they require.

while some will survive in other than their required water chemistry, they will not thrive, will rarely breed and if they do, the young will not survive.
you're never too old to have a happy childhood.
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flyingfish
Junior Member
Username: flyingfish

Post Number: 67
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 06:00 pm:       

ACK! I dont want to seem like you may not be the problem. Dan is right and Apistos require more attention then most fish. I had assumed you knew alot about Apistos and kept a perfect habitat for them. Having a tds meter and RO unit seem to be prerequisites to having Apistos. You may want to do some research on the fish and their habitats before attempting to keep them. I apologize if you do in fact know what you are doing and keep a perfect habitat. I am interested in keeping Apistos and this thread caught my eye and I wanted to chime in.
I surf fish for stripers
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Kristin
Regular Member
Username: k_house

Post Number: 577
Registered: 01-2003
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 09:27 am:       

I've actually been reading up on them for several months. Even before I placed the order for them back in December. I will admit though that I had to google "TDS" when I read the above posts from dan and flyingfish! The lone remaining female Apisto seems to be doing okay, just extremely shy. I did find a local breeder of Apistos and discussed my problems with him and he agrees that it was the probably the stock and not my tanks. He recommended sticking with the Agassizi's though because they seem to do better than most in our Atlanta water. So I am picking up 2 pairs from him in mid-March. And they cost exactly half what the lfs charged me. Hindsight is 20/20.

Thanks for the pep talk guys!

And Shari - Thanks for the baby food recipe for my snails! I've been using the recipe for almost a year now and although my snails can't compare to yours, they are definitely doing better!
"No day is so bad that a wet, sloppy kiss can't fix." - the dog
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Shari
Ancient Plus
Username: shari

Post Number: 5459
Registered: 06-2003
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 11:28 am:       

My pleasure, K :-):-)

And I'm sure your's are just as nice as mine, so don't try that
My Fish Tanks Are SPREADING!!
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flyingfish
Junior Member
Username: flyingfish

Post Number: 74
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 12:41 pm:       

OK cool. Either way I apologize for being a little extreme on both sides of this. I wanted to show some empathy for the lost fish and then at the same time I did not want you to ignore a possible problem with your habitat. I have also researched Apistos and plan on keeping them very soon. I felt obligated to purchase an RO/DI unit along with tds meter to keep the perfect habitat for fish of this type. I hope that things work out for you and the planned mid-March Apistos :-)
I surf fish for stripers
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Dan
Junior Member
Username: jacksandoscars

Post Number: 12
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Saturday, February 18, 2006 - 08:37 pm:       

So you say you looked up "TDS" but you never gave the deffinition. As well what is an RO/DI unit. I'm headed out in 5 and have no time to take a quick look. I'll check back later to see what people said.
20g Tank - 1 dwarf gourami, 2 pearl gourami, 2 honey gourami, 4 corydoras, 1 small pleco
10g tank - 3 male and 7 female guppies. 2 corydoras.
*80g tank - coming soon!
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dan
Moderator
Username: dan

Post Number: 6531
Registered: 01-2003
Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 06:41 am:       

TDS = Total Dissolved Solids. "Dissolved solids" refer to any minerals, salts, metals, cations or anions dissolved in water. in other words, anything present in water other than the pure water (H20) molecule. The more minerals dissolved into the water the higher the total dissolved solids. these can be organic or inorganic and can include:

Sodium and potassium
Bicarbonates and carbonates
Sulfates
Chloride
Nitrate
Fluoride
Boron
Silica
Calcium
Bicarbonate
Magnesium
Chloride
Iron
Manganese
you're never too old to have a happy childhood.
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russ
Ancient Member
Username: rasaqua

Post Number: 3763
Registered: 01-2003
Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 10:04 pm:       

jacksandoscars,

An R/O (reverse osmosis)unit employs a process used to purify concentrated solutions (often water with high levels of dissolved salts) in which pressure is applied to the more concentrated (or contaminated) solution on one side of a semipermeable membrane. The result is the movement of solvent, across the membrame but not solutes, from the more concentrated side to the more dilute side, thus separating clean solvent from the concentrated solution.
www.st.com/stonline/press/news/glossary/r.htm

A D/I (demineralization/ion exchange) unit employs a process the purifies water utilizing ion exchange resins to remove inorganic chemicals from the water, but does not remove organic, bacterial, pathogenic, or particulate matter efficiently.

Aquarists that wish to deconstruct unfavorable water in order to suit a particular need for their fish will employ one or possibly both of these methods. I might point out though, that these are very purposeful units and the majority of hobbyists do not need these unit to maintain a thriving community aquarium.




"For every difficult question, there is an answer that is clear and simple and wrong."
(George Bernard Shaw)
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russ
Ancient Member
Username: rasaqua

Post Number: 3764
Registered: 01-2003
Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 10:34 pm:       

Well, I missed the edit window on this. I forgot to mention an important procedure when employing R/O and D/I units.......

When I indicated that these units are used to de-construct unfavorable water: you must also reconstruct the resulting water to meet the primary purpose of your endeavors. (again, remember that these units are very purposeful).


"For every difficult question, there is an answer that is clear and simple and wrong."
(George Bernard Shaw)
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Dan
Junior Member
Username: jacksandoscars

Post Number: 13
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 01:00 am:       

Huh, very interesting.
I've never seen anything like what you describe. Brings me right back to Science 10 though!
20g Tank - 1 dwarf gourami, 2 pearl gourami, 2 honey gourami, 4 corydoras, 1 small pleco
10g tank - 3 male and 7 female guppies. 2 corydoras.
*80g tank - coming soon!
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russ
Ancient Member
Username: rasaqua

Post Number: 3776
Registered: 01-2003
Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 04:14 pm:       

Science 10? I made it to Science 101
"For every difficult question, there is an answer that is clear and simple and wrong."
(George Bernard Shaw)
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Kristin
Regular Member
Username: k_house

Post Number: 580
Registered: 01-2003
Posted on Thursday, February 23, 2006 - 08:51 am:       

Well, spoke to the owner yesterday. Sort of. He didn't want to give me credit on the male since I didn't bring his poor dead body back within the warranty period. And he said that he was reluctant to give me full price credit for them because my pH was low and it was "obviously something wrong with my tanks" and not necessarily the quality of the fish. Then he disappears into the back of the store. The employee was writing up my credit and I said that since my tanks were (as the owner put it) obviously not conducive to healthy happy Apistos, could I get just a store credit so that I could purchase fish that were compatible with my tanks. He said no. What?! I asked to speak to the owner and was told he was "busy". I told the guy that he was just out here talking to me and to please ask him to spare just a minute to discuss this. He went into the back and came back out and said the owner was just too busy to talk to me and I would have to except same fish replacement. He also said he has no idea when they will get anymore Apistos in but they would be sure to call me as soon as they do. Yeah, sure.

The employee recommended that I take the new Apistos as soon as they come in so that they don't have to acclimate twice. My view on it is that I would prefer that the lfs keep them for a week or so to make sure they are healthy and then I'll take them. To which he said, of course, that he couldn't guarantee that he could hold them for me for that long. So I guess I get to repeat this process again and again until I finally end up with some hardy Apistos or just give up and accept the $70 loss.
"No day is so bad that a wet, sloppy kiss can't fix." - the dog
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flyingfish
Regular Member
Username: flyingfish

Post Number: 144
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Thursday, February 23, 2006 - 10:32 am:       

I am sorry about your loss. While researching on the proper habitat for Apistos you may also want to do some research on a reputable breeder. One that specializes or has the proper habitat for Apistos. Apistos require a special soft water environment. My Apistos came in 70ppm tds water with identical pH. The temperature was the only issue when acclimating.

Check out my new Apistos!
http://www.upperorchard.net/photos.html

I would be more then happy to share what I have learned. The story and status of my Apistos can be found on the homepage of the site. It is a work in progress.

Keep your head up and move forward. I was devastated with a horrible reintroduction to this hobby a short time ago. Since then I have bounced back better then ever. Special thanks goes out to the folks on this board who have helped me. Good luck.
This is my signature
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Kristin
Regular Member
Username: k_house

Post Number: 581
Registered: 01-2003
Posted on Thursday, February 23, 2006 - 02:53 pm:       

I actually located a local breeder rather easily. I am a member of my local aquarium association (Atlanta Area Aquarium Association) and I posted something on their forum and within a day or two I had a dozen recommendations for a particular breeder. I've already contacted him and explained my woes. I am picking up a pair of Agassizi's on March 11th! Woohoo!!!

A TDS meter would be ideal but, the next extra $50 I have is going towards a reactor for my pressurized CO2.
"No day is so bad that a wet, sloppy kiss can't fix." - the dog
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flyingfish
Regular Member
Username: flyingfish

Post Number: 152
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Thursday, February 23, 2006 - 04:52 pm:       

Sweet, Post pics ASAP.
March 11 will be here before you know it. From what I know TDS is a total combination of gh and kh. If you have the ability to monitor these it should hold you off. TDS readings are more convenient. Someone please chime in if I am wrong about this.
This is my signature
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Kristin
Regular Member
Username: k_house

Post Number: 582
Registered: 01-2003
Posted on Thursday, February 23, 2006 - 05:35 pm:       

I do have a KH and GH test kit. Will post results tomorrow. Thanks flyingfish!
"No day is so bad that a wet, sloppy kiss can't fix." - the dog
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Kristin
Regular Member
Username: k_house

Post Number: 583
Registered: 01-2003
Posted on Thursday, February 23, 2006 - 10:13 pm:       

In the 16 gallon which contains the one remaining Apisto:
KH = 35.8 ppm
GH = 71.6 ppm
Ammonia = 0
pH = 6.4

In the 90 gallon tank (which I could move the Apisto into):
KH = 53.7 ppm
GH = 125.3 ppm
Ammonia = 0
pH = 6.4

Now here's the kicker. I tested the pH of my tapwater and it is 7.6!
"No day is so bad that a wet, sloppy kiss can't fix." - the dog
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flyingfish
Regular Member
Username: flyingfish

Post Number: 158
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Friday, February 24, 2006 - 08:52 am:       

Well I would have to say those arent that bad. The ph is great as long as it doesnt dip. 0 nitrites/nitrates? What is your temperature?

My water was hard as a rock before ro. My tds is below 100ppm now with an estimated 1/3 tap water mix. I am moving to completly rebuilding the water and eliminating any mixture of tap water.

I have my little Apistos in a 65g. They obviously have enough room but not overwhelmed. Keep an eye out if they look too bottled up in the 16g. I would prepare the 90g as best you can.
Filter and heater $80
65 gallon aquarium $280
Gazing at your Apistogramma for hours on end.....
PRICELESS!!!
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Kristin
Regular Member
Username: k_house

Post Number: 584
Registered: 01-2003
Posted on Friday, February 24, 2006 - 06:23 pm:       

I let a cup of tapwater sit out for almost 24 hours. Testing right out of the tap pH is 7.6. Testing the same tapwater after it sat out for 24 hours the pH is 7.0. So maybe this helps explain why my pH is so low? It is artificially elevated by chemicals that dissipate after being exposed to air?
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you." - Nathaniel Hawthorne 1804-1864, American Novelist
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flyingfish
Regular Member
Username: flyingfish

Post Number: 161
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Saturday, February 25, 2006 - 08:30 pm:       

Well the tests arent accurate with the cold tap water. The difference is probably because of the temperature difference of the water. I may be wrong.

I think 5.x ph would be low, I wouldnt mind the 6.x you have. I just bought a hand held ph meter because I had doubts about the drops and quite frankly I am horrible with those little test kit beakers. My ph is reading 7.1-7.5 with this new meter, not to far off what the master test kit was showing.
Filter and heater $80
65 gallon aquarium $280
Gazing at your Apistogramma for hours on end.....
PRICELESS!!!
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