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My Angel is a Bully

Badmans Tropical Fish Message Center: archive: My Angel is a Bully
  

Amanda

Thursday, June 21, 2001 - 04:42 pm
Hi. . .I hope you can help with some fish pyschology. I have 2 freshwater angelfish that I got at the same time in Oct '99 (one was a nickel size and the other a quarter at the time). I have them in a heated 20 gal tank with no other fish. I feed them angelfish flake food, I have stocked the tank with fake Amazon Sword plants only, and some small rock formations. I have a black background on the back of the tank. Now my problem. . . one of the fish (the original quarter size) has grown considerably. He is now much much larger than the other fish. He bullies the small fish contantly and has for a long time. The smaller fish can't eat in peace and I have to try to feed on opposite sides of the tank so the big guy will be distracted long enough for the little one to eat. The little one mainly hides in the plants and rocks, because if the bully sees him, he swims at him and hits him in the side. Little guy's fins are nowhere near as long and beautiful as the bully's are, as he is probably nipped and also can't grow as tall since he confines himself to the secluded areas of the tank. I put Melafix in the tank to reduce his stress and to help heal any damage to the fins. My beautiful bully (he is gorgeous, I know why he has an attitude) swims up and down the open part of the tank parading about constantly. The little guy never gets much open swim time.

What can I do to prevent this? I love my bully because he is so healthy and beautiful, but I know the little stunted one is miserable. Why is one fish doing this? I thought I was supposed to buy a pair. . .and they would be happy! This is my first experience with anything other than goldfish . . . and I have raised a brute! Help!

  

Anonymous

Friday, June 22, 2001 - 02:14 am
I don't know if it works for angelfish, but my mbunas did the same until I loaded the tank. Don't go far over the one inch per gallon rule, but push the limits and add more of the same fish. If there's enough of them they might not bully each other so much.

  

Kick

Friday, June 22, 2001 - 09:17 am
Amanda, read the subtopic above named "white clouds". This might give you a little bit of an idea about your angel. Another thing might be that they are both the same sex and the bully just will not tolerate the other one.

About the only thing you can do to calm this tank is either remove the smaller one so that he has some peace or remove the bully to his own tank. Sometimes if they are introduced to a tank that already has fish in it, their territory has not yet been marked, and they will leave the others alone.

Just for your information, you tell the difference between sexes by the male having a "hump" on his head starting right behind his snout. The female is "straight lined" from the snout back to the dorsal fin.

You cannot "load" this tank. Angels need a lot of room to swim. You might possibly add only l or two more, but if the bully is as big as you say he is, even with l more, this tank may be crowded and the situation will become worse. He will start attacking all of them. Hope this helps.

  

Amanda

Friday, June 22, 2001 - 11:47 am
Thank you so much Kick for your time and input! I will go home from work today and attempt to sex my angels and then think about my options.

By the way, you mentioned that maybe adding another fish would help (or make the situation worse). I failed to mention that I have a Plecto in there and the big angel doesn't bother him at all. What other fish would you recommend? Another angel? What size and sex? Another fish that could hold his own without beating up my little angel? Any ideas? I don't have another tank to move the fish to right now, so I am kinda stuck. Would a fish store take my little angel? Would the bully become lonely and depressed without a companion of the same species?

  

Kick

Friday, June 22, 2001 - 05:39 pm
Okay, now let me think......you have a 20 gallon, right? And right now you have basically 3 fish...is that correct....2 angels and a pleco. The angel probably does not bother the pleco because he is not swimming constantly and if in the bully's territory, which appears to be the whole tank as far as the little one goes, he basically stays off somewhere on the glass or plant and is not a threat of any kind to the bully.

My rule of thumb with angels does not correspond with the basis of l inch of fish per gallon of water. Angels needs a lot of room to swim and they need space. If this angel is as big as I think it may be, adding 1 or two more to the 2 you already have in there is really pushing it. You would need a fish of approximately the same size as the bully so he would not torment it. If you find that they are both of the same sex, maybe returning the little one since that appears what you want to do, and getting one of the opposite sex that is close in size to the bully. This may not work either, but you could at least give it a shot. Angels can be kept alone and if you have no desire to breed, you may just want to keep him by himself. I know the tank will look barren, but better to have 1 happy fish than several miserable ones. Let me know what you find out and what you decide. I will be looking on this post for your reply.

  

Amanda

Friday, June 22, 2001 - 05:59 pm
Kick--
Thank you verifying that I had limited myself to 2 angels for a good reason. I thought they needed room to swim and grow, and you proved me right (boosts the ego a little, since I am new to all of this). I am considering trying to return the smaller angel (although I have had him for a 1 1/2 years), especially since you said that the larger one will not be lonely. I would like to replace it with a larger angel, if possible, but I have not seen angels as big as mine in pet stores.

This might be a crazy thought, but I have been interested in the (african) butterfly fish for sometime. I have been hoping to save for a larger tank and investigate this species. I noticed that Joyce had some questions about this fish in the archives, but she did not get any answers. I have researched it the best I can and found that it likes the water conditions that angels like (soft water with a slightly low PH, filtered through peat, no strong currents, carnivious (my large angel would surely love me starting him on frozen or live food, right?). Would it be irresponsible to try to introduce one of these (if I remove the smaller angel)? My tank does have a tight-fitting hood so it (hopefully) won't jump out. Is it worth a try? It doesn't seem like it a commonly kept fish so I don't know if anyone knows anything about this. . .

I appreciate everyone's advice. I really want my tank to be "happy" and I am so grateful for this newly discovered resource!

  

Kick

Friday, June 22, 2001 - 06:46 pm
Oh gosh, Amanda, I probably will not be much help here. I don't know a lot about African butterfly fish. They may get along okay as both are from the cichlid family. However, if we are talking about the same fish, my references tell me that they like pH of 7.8, where the angels prefer 6.6 to 6.8. and a hardness of 12. They like rocks and no plants, and sad to say, it specially says they are not for beginners. I am not saying that you are a beginner, but this leads me to believe that they are not a very easy fish to keep.

I personally don't keep cichlids other than my angels as so many of the species are aggressive and territorial. I know what you mean about not being able to find "large" angels and sad to say when you do, most LPS's want and arm and a leg for them.

Maybe someone else can jump in here and help you, but I know Jeff and Joyce are gone for the weekend. Curt might also be able to help, but I don't know where he has been for a number of days. I guess you can wait to see if someone else can help with the butterfly or take a risk and see what happens. Keep a close eye no matter what you do, as you just don't know of the temperament of either the bully or another fish, and it could end up he will be the one that gets bullied.

  

Amanda

Friday, June 22, 2001 - 09:39 pm
Thank you for your words of caution. This will certainly be a hard decision, no matter what I decide. All I know is that I love these fish and I don't want to have to give up either one. . .so if anyone else has any advice, I'll be checking the board.

By the way, both of my angelfish appear to be males (I think). They do have a slight bulge behind the snout, but I don't have anything to compare it to. Is the snout an accurate way to identify sex in all ages of Angelfish?

Can I have hope that a female might not be as bullied as my poor little gold male? Are they any known behavior differences between different strains of angels? For instance, the aggressor here is a large marble-like angel and the victim is a gold. How likely is breeding if I introduce a female this late in life? I have not thought of breeding before, but I don't want to be caught off guard (or disappointed).

How long will it take for another angel to grow to a size of my large angel (and I assume even he is still growing)? His body has a 3in diameter, 6-7in long with his tail. He is about 6-7in tall including his uppermost/lowermost fins. --for comparison, my little angel has only grown to about 2in diameter body, about 3in long including tail, and about 4in tall--

I am contacting a LFS tomorrow to see if I can make a trade arrangement. I have never tried to make such an arrangement before so any advice would be appreciated. I moved with my fish (and order my supplies), so I have not purchased in the area before. Please wish my angels and me luck!

Thank you.

  

Laura W.

Tuesday, June 26, 2001 - 01:47 pm
Amanda- What ever happened?

  

joycedonley

Tuesday, June 26, 2001 - 02:35 pm
Amanda I just read your post. I have kept Cichlids for about four years...Angels, African mbuna and Festivum. They are all territorial to some degree. My festivum fought constantly until I moved them to a 55gal tank. They were even knocking around the heater and I was afraid they would break it. The smallest tank I would keep two angels in would be a 29gal and a larger one would be better. Unless you are sure you have a mated pair and that is pretty hard to determine, there is a very good chance they will pick at each other. If you really want to keep 2 having a lot of plants where they can hide from one another may help..it does in my 29gal tank. Also you may use small 'dither fish' to distract them from each other. The smaller tetras that are quicker become the target instead of their fellow angel. The two angels in my 40 gallon high seem more content and rarely fight with each other(a little room goes a long way)

  

Anonymous

Saturday, June 30, 2001 - 03:44 pm
Dither fish? That sounds interesting, but how how do the smaller fish take it?

  

joycedonley

Saturday, June 30, 2001 - 05:27 pm
Someone who bred angels told me about this and it seems to work. The angels are distracted by the smaller fish and will briefly pursue them so they forget about really picking on each other. If you use tetra they are very fast, spunky and can outmanuever any angelfish. If you have a small group they won't be that stressed or bullied, since the angel isn't really actively seeking a fight with one ...just trying to get them out of his territory. Anyways seems to work fine with my angels. I am not sure how the nickname 'dither fish' got attached, but it is also in a lot of books.

 

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