Chat transcripts

[20:00 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> For anyone who does not know me a quick intro on who I am. I live in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. I first kept fish in about 1964 in England. My Uncle introduced me to them and I was instantly hooked. When I left School in 1968, I worked for 18 months in a fish importers in Chiswick, London, England.
[20:01 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> I have kept Coldwater fish, Tropical Freshwater and Marines, British Native Marine fish and built 7 different ponds over the years. I became interested in Loaches in 1998 through the Loaches on Line Website and rapidly started to specialize in Hillstream Loaches.
[20:03 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Before I start to tell you about these fascinating fish, first some info. Every so often I will put up URLs for further information. If you click on the URL, you can then bookmark the site for further reading later. Each time I will give you all time to do that before proceeding.
[20:05 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> The fish referred to as "Hillstream Loaches" come under the Family Balitoridae. All these fish have varying adaptation of form from what might be termed the "classic" fish-shape in order to cope with the demands of living in fast-flowing water.
[20:06 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Many different species are imported and in most cases they are never properly identified. They get called all sorts of imaginative names by the export trade and these names get used by retailers because most do not bother to find out exactly what it is they are selling. All fish are wild caught.
[20:06 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Identity created a big problem when these fish were first imported because they were called such things as "Hong-kong Plecs" This caused confusion with South-American Plecostomus species and led to the fish being kept in unsuitable conditions. Most died fairly quickly.
[20:07 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> These fish live in very fast flowing water with high Oxygen levels and are adapted in such a way that they cannot get enough Oxygen to survive in a regular aquarium set up. They literally suffocate because their blood does not take up Oxygen very efficiently at the gills.
[20:08 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> I had read an article on fish from fast-flowing waters in an old British fish magazine and I made the connection with these fish. That led to me thinking up a way of keeping them in aquaria in a way that satisfies their Oxygen requirements, plus gives them a river-like flow in the tank.
[20:08 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> My aim was to create lots of water movement in one direction (as far as is possible) using readily available equipment at a reasonable price. With that as the goal, I realized that big water movement needs big pumps, so used two Aquaclear 802 Powerheads in my original 44 inch long tank.
[20:09 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> My aim was to create lots of water movement in one direction (as far as is possible) using readily available equipment at a reasonable price. With that as the goal, I realized that big water movement needs big pumps, so used two Aquaclear 802 Powerheads in my original 44 inch long tank.
[20:10 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Does this pace seem OK Craig?
[20:10 16/01/2004] <@craig> Just fine Martin, please continue.
[20:10 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Details of the River-Tank manifold design can be found at:
[20:11 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> http://www.loaches.com/river_tank.html
[20:11 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> http://www.pricenetwork.ca/gallery/displayimage.php?&pos=-292
[20:12 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> I christened this design "The River-Tank"and built my first one in England in 1998. I posted the article "A River Runs Through It" on Loaches on Line and since then people have been building these water manifolds all over the world and keeping Hillstream Loaches and other fast water loving species with success.
[20:13 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> A River-Tank presents the aquarist the possibility of re-creating a totally different type of environment to the "average" fish tank. It is a unique environment. These fast-flowing streams force their way through gullies and erode the rocky soil.
[20:13 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Their beds consist of sand, gravel and various sized stones and rocks, which provide good hiding places out of the relentless current. Here, where the rainforests rise up the mountains, bamboos and wild bananas shade the banks. In places, there are tree ferns and giant trees upon which orchids grow.
[20:14 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> These streams are highly oxygenated and out of the shade, well illuminated. There are no floating plants and the fish are lively, active creatures. The environment is an attractive one, due to it's very lightness, cleanliness and liveliness.
[20:14 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Virtually everywhere, the untiring water will have loosened small pieces of rock. These fall into the stream bed of smooth pebbles and gravel. Sand only remains in very sheltered areas. Therefore in a tank, we should endeavour to create this sort of environment.
[20:15 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> My tank contains many different sizes of Granite rocks collected from the shores of Lake Superior. Be sure to use inert types of rocks. Plants only survive in sheltered areas in wild streams, but I include them in my tanks because of their beneficial effects and beauty.
[20:16 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Many Hillstreams get called "Sucker Belly Loaches" The various extremes of fin and body adaptation in these fish has logical reasoning behind it. If you can stop the water flowing under the fish the pressure differential that causes lift is largely eliminated.
[20:16 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Resistance to movement then comes down to the weight of the fish, plus it's friction against the resting surface versus the drag of it's body and the speed of the water. A way to increase the resistance to movement is to create negative pressure under the body, thereby effectively increasing the body weight and it's resistance to movement.
[20:17 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Some of the species have fins that are enlarged to a point that allows them to shut out the "under-flow". They have pectoral and pelvic fins that overlap and create a large shut-off area. In these fish, the rear portion of the pectorals is modified into a flap which the fish moves and it appears that this pumps out water from under the fish. When the fish shuts off the "Valve" the fins seal the fish to the surface, and resist the body
[20:18 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> These fish do not have functional swim bladders and live on the stream floor . They graze on rocks upon the algae and the micro-organisms it contains. The body modifications allow them to do this effectively. The body and fins prevent them being washed away, whilst the rasping mouth feeds on algae.
[20:18 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> In aquaria, their tanks should be brightly lit to encourage algal growth. I use four 40 Watt flourescent tubes over a 4 foot tank. The fish graze the rocks and glass all the time, but they will also eat flake food, sinking pellets, frozen Bloodworm and Brine Shrimp. Jim Powers feeds kale leaves to his fish.
[20:19 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> If you have not seen any of these fish before, please check out my photo albums at:
[20:19 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> http://www.pricenetwork.ca/gallery/index.php?cat=10031
[20:20 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> If you HAVE seen any species in dealer's tanks, it is likely that they were quite lethargic. This is because most tanks do not have enough Oxygen. Therefore the fish rest a lot. In my tanks, the fish are very lively and provide constant amusement and interest. Many are very attractively marked and their movements remind me of little clockwork toys, always busy.
[20:21 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> High altitude mountain streams are cooler than conventional "Tropical" temperatures, so I do not use heaters. The effect of good Oxygen levels, lots of water movement and good food mean happy fish. Happy fish in aquaria often are so happy that they will breed.
[20:22 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Jim is actually here at the moment, by the way
[20:23 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Pseudogastromyzon cheni have been bred by quite a few people. Their courtship consists of the male dancing around the female, fluttering his fins. He digs a spawning pit under the edge of a rock with his tail. The fish spawn, then bury the eggs. Babies hatch and are quite big when they first appear above the gravel.
[20:23 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> The babies are quite slow growing in Pseudogastromyzon, somewhat quicker in Liniparhomaloptera. I do not honestly think that these fish are viable to raise for profit because of their slow growth, so doubt we will ever see a time that they will be bred commercially.
[20:24 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Here are Ron Shimek's pictures of Roxie Fredrickson's P.cheni breeding:
[20:26 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> http://www.loaches.com/species_pages/baby_cheni_photos.html
[20:27 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Happy, healthy fish are generally resistant to disease, but Hillstreams are susceptible to a seemingly specific disease. The signs are areas of fading colour and reduction in feeding. Death can follow very rapidly and early treatment is required for any chance of saving the fish.
[20:27 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Jim Powers had some success using Maracyn-Two (minocycline) and Maracyn (erythromycin) concurrently. Details can be found at:
[20:28 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> http://www.loaches.com/hillstream_disease.html
[20:29 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> A much more detailed explanation of these fish can be found in my online article at:
[20:30 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> http://www.loaches.com/hillstream_loaches.html
[20:30 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Also, check out the other articles on these fish at:
[20:31 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> http://www.loaches.com/hillstream_intro.html
[20:32 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> I greatly enjoy this family of fish and find them very entertaining and satisfying to keep in my aquaria. Their unique life style makes them a challenge which I am glad to have met and seemingly conquered. I totally encourage others to give them a try, but PLEASE only do it if you are prepared to give them the specialized conditions that their physiology demands.
[20:32 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> I am happy that I have helped others keep these fish effectively and hopefully my efforts mean that more survive in aquaria. I have tried to raise aquarists and dealer's awareness of this fish family's needs and the diversity of species. It seems that there has been some effect because more species are gradually becoming available, so I guess that interest is growing and creating a demand.
[20:34 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> If anybody missed any of the URLs I'll give them to you if you need them.Craig asked me here to raise awareness of the participants and at this point I'm throwing it open for questions.
[20:34 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Over to you CRAIG :)
[20:34 16/01/2004] <@craig> Thank you Martin.
[20:35 16/01/2004] <@Jessica> applause.. i'm sure :)
[20:35 16/01/2004] <@craig> If you would like to ask Martin a question please send a private message to me.
[20:35 16/01/2004] <@craig> This can be done by typing: /query craig I have a question
[20:35 16/01/2004] <@craig> At that point I will give you the ability to speak directly to the channel.
[20:37 16/01/2004] <@Jessica> I guess this is more for jim, but i was wondering about the kale
[20:37 16/01/2004] <@Jessica> is it blanched or just raw
[20:37 16/01/2004] <+jim> par boiled, I also use spinach
[20:37 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> I knew someone would ask him that :)
[20:37 16/01/2004] <+jim> I eat some of it too
[20:38 16/01/2004] <@Jessica> :)
[20:38 16/01/2004] <@Nigel> do loaches shoal or have a 'best' family sized unit?
[20:39 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Hillstreams, particularly the "Sucker" types, tend to "tolerate" each other. They tend to be territorial of a favourite area
[20:40 16/01/2004] <@Nigel> by pairs?
[20:40 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Botia loaches are more shoalers
[20:40 16/01/2004] * @Nigel nods
[20:40 16/01/2004] <+Noname> Hey, this question probably will not matter to others, but I am also in the Toronto area and was wondering if you would recommend a store in the Toronto area which carries Hillstreams on a regular basis, or a good local fish store in general.
[20:40 16/01/2004] <@craig> NN, you are up.
[20:41 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Nigel, males tend to be more defensive than females, but there's no damage done. They simply don't have any weaponry
[20:41 16/01/2004] <@Nigel> :-D
[20:41 16/01/2004] <@Nigel> sounds familiar
[20:42 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Noname. ABSOLUTELY, DEFINITELY, the Menagerie Petshop on Parliament. Tell Harold I sent you
[20:42 16/01/2004] <+Noname> lol, ok thanks ^_^ I will check it out
[20:42 16/01/2004] <@craig> Dave, your up.
[20:43 16/01/2004] <+Dave> jim, do you weigh down the kale or just throw it in?
[20:43 16/01/2004] <+jim> I put it under a rock
[20:43 16/01/2004] <+Dave> doh! I remember now. Cheers :)
[20:44 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Rock on ;)
[20:44 16/01/2004] <@craig> Mark, fire away. :-)
[20:44 16/01/2004] <+Mark> Hi. thanks for doing this, it's been great.
[20:44 16/01/2004] <+Mark> Do we have any idea of how many species exist in the wild?
[20:44 16/01/2004] <+Mark> And the impact of collection, ecologically?
[20:45 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> No problemo. The Balatorid family is ENORMOUS!! We've only seen a fraction of the species in aquaria.
[20:46 16/01/2004] <+Mark> I suppose fishbase.org would be a good source...
[20:46 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Ecology. Good Q. I have a horrible, nasty feeling that they must catch these fish using electric stunning. Certainly, scientific studies fish these Hill streams in that way.
[20:47 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Fishbase is excellent, but there aren't TOO many pics for ID
[20:47 16/01/2004] <+Mark> Start raising fry!
[20:47 16/01/2004] <+Mark> Anyway, thanks again.
[20:47 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Like I said, they grow slow and Jim and I only know of 2 species bred so far
[20:48 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> U-R welcome
[20:48 16/01/2004] <@craig> Jess. :-)
[20:48 16/01/2004] <@Jessica> back to the territorial hting
[20:48 16/01/2004] <@Jessica> is there a recomended area/space to be given to each fish when stocking?
[20:49 16/01/2004] <@Jessica> i.e. 10" square, etc
[20:50 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Nope! My 65 had at least 75 baby cheni in it at one time, plus adults. However, a lot dissapeared, so I think that to an extent available algae on rocks may limit stock levels. My tank now is pretty full though
[20:51 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> I have several species, plus Dithers and some gobies and catfish that share the same habitat
[20:51 16/01/2004] <@Jessica> may i ask how many you have in there?
[20:52 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> No idea to be truthful! I can never see them all at any one time :)
[20:52 16/01/2004] <@Jessica> lol
[20:52 16/01/2004] <@craig> Martin, on the behalf of another chat member here: Can you ask him min. tank size for them and overall max size?
[20:54 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Tank length and breadth are important. They need area. Length is important for giving them some sort of one direction water movement. However, I use a 19 gal with one Aquaclear 802 in it as a quarantine tank. THAT'S some water movement! Most species are around 3 inches
[20:54 16/01/2004] <@craig> So a 20 long would be a good starter tank for hillstreams?
[20:55 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Sorry, that should have read 10 gallon
[20:55 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> 20 would be awesome! :)
[20:55 16/01/2004] <@craig> At this point in time I would like to extend my gratitude to Martin for accepting my invitation to be here tonight.
[20:56 16/01/2004] <@craig> Martin, thank you very much.
[20:56 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Glad to be here
[20:56 16/01/2004] <@craig> I am now going to open the floor for general discussion.
[20:56 16/01/2004] <+jim> Yeah! Thanks Martin
[20:56 16/01/2004] <Noname> That was amazing, I hope for more such events...
[20:56 16/01/2004] <@Jessica> thx Martin :)
[20:56 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> I think sully had a Q about water movement??
[20:56 16/01/2004] <JBall> Thanks Martin
[20:57 16/01/2004] <russ> Thank you very much:-)
[20:57 16/01/2004] <Gar> Gracias
[20:57 16/01/2004] <Dave> Thanks Martin, good presentantion
[20:57 16/01/2004] <JBall> I had the question about water movement
[20:57 16/01/2004] * Dave can't spell
[20:57 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> JBall ask away
[20:57 16/01/2004] <megan> ty for coming martin, i hope to see the transcript later :)
[20:58 16/01/2004] <@craig> Please feel free to continue the hillstream talk. :-)
[20:58 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> U wuz late megan!
[20:58 16/01/2004] <@Nigel> copies abound meg :-D
[20:58 16/01/2004] <JBall> in your opinion have important it the unidirectional water flow vs O2 content?
[20:58 16/01/2004] <megan> lol i know i'm sorry, basketball...
[20:59 16/01/2004] <@craig> I'll be posting the transcript (after a little sanatizing) tomorrow morning on my website and emailing it to Jeff Schafer to post on LoL.
[20:59 16/01/2004] <JBall> have should be how sorry
[20:59 16/01/2004] <megan> craig, awesome, thanks :)
[21:00 16/01/2004] <@Nigel> good info - even for a non-fishie like me :-D
[21:00 16/01/2004] <sully> Martin, I guess J ball is getting to the "tumbling" question vs O2
[21:00 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> O2 is of primary importance. The uni-directional flow is secondary and hard to produce truly in a short tank because the concentration of pressure from a p/head outlet cuases a bounce-back effect for the flow. The fish do have certain behavioural quirks that you only see with a flow though.
[21:01 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> One habit is "positive rheotaxis". put food in the tank and they all swim "upstream" because that's where food smell would come from in nature
[21:03 16/01/2004] <Dave> positive rheotaxis has just reminded me that amazon.co.uk never did find the Reebs book for me
[21:03 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Awesome book! (but you probably don't want to hear that eh?):(
[21:03 16/01/2004] <Dave> no :)
[21:03 16/01/2004] <jim> Martin: what is your favorite hillstream species and why?
[21:03 16/01/2004] <JBall> so given option would you mix p/heads w/venturi with pheads with out?
[21:04 16/01/2004] <Dave> I'll place the order again tommorrow to see if they have any luck this year
[21:04 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Favourite? Gastromyzon punctulatus.....spunky and beautifully marked. Poor man's Golden-Nugget :)
[21:05 16/01/2004] <jim> I would have to agree
[21:06 16/01/2004] <Gar> I'd like to inquire about proper stocking level and a good constant temp.
[21:06 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> JBall. I have two 802s in my tank. One uses the venturi, but needs a small air pump to power it because of it's depth situation. The other doesn't use air. Remember that air use reduces output
[21:07 16/01/2004] <jim> You can bury an airstone in front of a PwerHd and get the same effect without using a venturi
[21:07 16/01/2004] <JBall> the output reduction is why I asked. Thanks. One more question if I may
[21:08 16/01/2004] <@craig> Jim, my 20L is sitting on the floor behind me, you'll have competition at AW very soon. ;-)
[21:08 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Gar, if you saw above, my tank is fairly crowded. Constant temperature never happens in nature. I think it's overrated in aquaria. My tanks have no heaters. The pumps warm the water. Normal temp is about 75 if find
[21:08 16/01/2004] <jim> I get first dibs on any Homaloptera orthogoniata!
[21:08 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Ask JBall
[21:08 16/01/2004] <JBall> Martin/Jim: how many generations of hillstreams have you bred?
[21:08 16/01/2004] <@craig> Hehehe Jim. :-)
[21:09 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> If U find them...ROAD TRIP!!!
[21:09 16/01/2004] <jim> I would be happy to find L. disparis again
[21:10 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> I think it's 3 generations, maybe more. The original parents are long dead. RIP :(
[21:10 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Me too Jim!
[21:11 16/01/2004] <jim> Same for me, except the original male cheni is still alive. One of my oldest fish
[21:11 16/01/2004] <JBall> impressive. thanks for the info and great presentation. see you on LOL
[21:11 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Pseudogastromyzon geriatric..LOL!
[21:11 16/01/2004] <@craig> I have some fish that are gonna be upset with me when I steal their algae coated rocks for the rivertank..
[21:11 16/01/2004] <jim> What do you plan on putting in there craig?
[21:11 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> What fish Craig?
[21:12 16/01/2004] <Noname> Craig, I take it your staring up a Hillstream tank again...
[21:12 16/01/2004] <@craig> NN, I have the stuff to put it together all around me in this room right now. :-D
[21:12 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> He is. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated :)
[21:12 16/01/2004] <jim> Very true
[21:12 16/01/2004] <@craig> I have 5 other tanks that all have river stones in them with nice algae coatings on them..
[21:13 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Nice!
[21:13 16/01/2004] <jim> That's like candy to them
[21:13 16/01/2004] <@craig> I'm going to steal them and put'em in the rivertank once it is together..
[21:13 16/01/2004] <@craig> My rubbernose plecos aren't gonna like me though..
[21:13 16/01/2004] <Noname> I think Ill be starting one soon, have to check my extra tank for, um how do I put this...life...
[21:13 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> I'm thinking of putting one of our spare tanks out on the balcony next Summer to grow algae on stones.
[21:14 16/01/2004] <jim> I was growing algae but stopped for a bit. They would clean all the new rocks I put in the tank in a few minutes
[21:14 16/01/2004] <@craig> Jim, grow more algae rocks then! :-D
[21:14 16/01/2004] <Dave> have you tried those "aufwuchs" feeders that they developed for mbuna?
[21:14 16/01/2004] <sully> martin, thank you. but, pacers are up by 9 against san antonio with 5 left--i will be back
[21:14 16/01/2004] <jim> They're eating pellets and bloodworms so that will do
[21:14 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Craig! That's SO funny, because owning a Rubbernose was what first got me interested in fast water fishes. They're feisty lil" buggers those!
[21:15 16/01/2004] <jim> sully are you a hoosier?
[21:15 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> sully! Sport is SOOooooo boring IMO
[21:15 16/01/2004] <@craig> Martin, I love the little guys, 3 of the 5 tanks have one of them.
[21:16 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> My 2.5 inch one used to fight a 4" Royal Panaque off sinking pellets FUN1:O
[21:17 16/01/2004] <@craig> My 2 incher gets into regular routs with the clowns in my 75.. He usually wins, tough little bugger.
[21:17 16/01/2004] <jim> I was growing the algae to feed my new punctulatus until they caught on to eating other food. Now they are pigs so I quit the growing for a bit.
[21:17 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> The Panaque is now here in Toronto and about 6"
[21:17 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Jimand I have lardy Gastromyzons!
[21:17 16/01/2004] <@craig> I'm still not sure what I want for hillstreams, Jim, what does Doug have that might be good for me to start with?
[21:18 16/01/2004] <jim> Well, he usually has beaufortia, and sometimes gets Pseudogastromyzon cheni
[21:18 16/01/2004] <jim> We need to get him finding more species
[21:18 16/01/2004] <@craig> What does he label the cheni as?
[21:19 16/01/2004] <jim> I had to get my new puncs from Boston
[21:19 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Beaufortia are OK, but hide more than cheni
[21:19 16/01/2004] <jim> Hillstream loaches
[21:19 16/01/2004] <@craig> Doh! Thanks. :-D
[21:19 16/01/2004] <jim> Yes, chenis would be the best, if he has them
[21:19 16/01/2004] <@craig> Well, he'll just have to get some then.
[21:20 16/01/2004] <jim> He has had lizard fish or lizard cats, but that can be several species
[21:20 16/01/2004] <@craig> I'll start nagging him monday. ;-)
[21:20 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Hillstream Loaches is better than some of the more outrageous, innacurate names I've seen.
[21:20 16/01/2004] <Noname> Martin, would you happen to know what the Menagerie carries?
[21:20 16/01/2004] <Dave> borneo suckers is a personal favourite
[21:20 16/01/2004] <jim> This store is full of knowledgable help
[21:20 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Black Orchid Botia for instance.....Homaloptera orthogoniata?? Go figure...how'd they get "Black"??
[21:21 16/01/2004] <jim> It's a cool name though
[21:21 16/01/2004] <Dave> maybe they had unhealthy specimens
[21:21 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Noname...Harold has Gastromyzon punctulatus in right now, plus I think he has Beaufortia.
[21:21 16/01/2004] <Dave> or maybe a black orchid is kinda brown with darker brown markings?
[21:22 16/01/2004] <jim> Craig, if Doug every gets homaloptera tweedei as lizard cats(the most often choice) they are a great fish and very cool. Good color changers
[21:22 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Could be Dave. It's an exporter's name list type thing
[21:22 16/01/2004] <@craig> Cool Jim.
[21:22 16/01/2004] <@craig> I'm glad I am logging this too. :-)
[21:22 16/01/2004] <Noname> thanks Martin ^_^
[21:23 16/01/2004] <Dave> we all know that common names are bad though so it don't matter what they call them at the end of the day
[21:23 16/01/2004] <jim> I think hillstreams are among the most poorly identified fish on the market
[21:23 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Harold always lets me know what's likely to be in. I'm waiting on a Vietnam shipment at present, but they keep postponing it. Should be interesting if it arrives.
[21:24 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Noname, wherabouts in TO are u?
[21:24 16/01/2004] <Noname> I cannot wait to see what the the Menagerie is like, I think I was there when young, but do not remember it well
[21:24 16/01/2004] <Gar> One thing, I live down here in Florida (it's warm right in the middle of "winter") and am wondering how well they handle higher temps
[21:25 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Ha ha! We were all young once!
[21:25 16/01/2004] <jim> Remember, Noname, Martin gets all the oddball stuff
[21:25 16/01/2004] <Noname> Oh, well I have 2 houses, my mothers and grandfathers, My grandfather is in scarborough, and I am actually in pickering, but most of my friends and such are in Toronto, so I dont spend much time here
[21:25 16/01/2004] <Noname> Horrah, Oddballs ^_^
[21:25 16/01/2004] <jim> I mean he get s the first pick lol
[21:26 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Gar. Consistantly high temps might be a problem, but back in England, my fish survived Summer temps up to over 90F thanks to no A/C
[21:26 16/01/2004] <@craig> I'm glad I live sooooo close to Aquarium World. ;-)
[21:26 16/01/2004] <jim> It's only a hour and 45 minutes for me
[21:26 16/01/2004] <Gar> Gets to about 80 or so with ac in the summer
[21:27 16/01/2004] <Gar> during the day
[21:27 16/01/2004] <@craig> We'll hook up one of these days Jim.
[21:27 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Actually, the Big Als out that way occasionally gets Hillstreams. In my gallery (URL was posted), I have pics of a yellow morph Sinogastromyzon I bought from there,
[21:27 16/01/2004] <jim> I'm sure. I just missed you the other day
[21:28 16/01/2004] <jim> PACERS WIN?
[21:28 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Bit high Gar I'd say. In the wild, the temps fluctuate, but the higher altitudes these fish live at means mean temps are lower than at low altitude.
[21:29 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> A Hard Days Night?
[21:29 16/01/2004] <jim> He's been workin' like a dog
[21:29 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> LOl!
[21:30 16/01/2004] <@craig> He won't be sleeping like a log for a bit yet tho. ;-)
[21:30 16/01/2004] <jim> LOL
[21:30 16/01/2004] <Noname> lol
[21:30 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Isn't it good, Norweigan wood? I dunno ask a Norweigan :)
[21:30 16/01/2004] <jim> Martin, Guess what I found in my river tank filter tonight?
[21:31 16/01/2004] <@craig> I'm not a pleco, I don't do wood. :-D
[21:31 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> The Titanic?
[21:31 16/01/2004] <jim> Two babies
[21:31 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Yahay!
[21:31 16/01/2004] <jim> and a amano shrimp
[21:31 16/01/2004] <jim> The babies were newly hatched
[21:31 16/01/2004] <jim> very small
[21:31 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Lucky it wasn't one of Nemo's blue gravel bits
[21:31 16/01/2004] <jim> I thought I had all male chenis
[21:31 16/01/2004] <Noname> lol
[21:31 16/01/2004] <jim> Yes
[21:32 16/01/2004] <jim> Wouldn't a punc make a good character in a freshwater Nemo like movie?
[21:32 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> It's OK Jim. These days gay couple chenis have babies too.
[21:33 16/01/2004] <jim> immaculate conception?
[21:33 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Yes Jim. I only saw Nemo last week for the first time and a movie with Loaches was in my head all the way through.
[21:35 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> BTW Jim. I got your mail. Just never had time to answer
[21:35 16/01/2004] <jim> I figured as much
[21:36 16/01/2004] <jim> those were awesome pics!
[21:36 16/01/2004] <jim> I want some of those gastros of yours
[21:37 16/01/2004] <sully> pacers win
[21:37 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> I C then in U r future
[21:37 16/01/2004] <Noname> Martin, just another hillstream question if you dont mind, what are some good tank mates or other fast water fish avaliable?
[21:38 16/01/2004] <jim> I hope so. You love saying that don't you
[21:38 16/01/2004] <jim> SULLY you a hoosier?
[21:38 16/01/2004] <@craig> Nah, he's from Indy. ;-)
[21:38 16/01/2004] <jim> I can't believe there are three of us here
[21:39 16/01/2004] <@craig> There are, I was bad and got Sully started on loaches again..
[21:39 16/01/2004] <sully> live in Indy
[21:39 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> I have Glyptothorax catfish, Stiphodon species gobies. My Dither fish are Barbus arulias. You could use Whiteclkouds, Zebra or Leaopard Danios.
[21:39 16/01/2004] <jim> I live in bloomington
[21:39 16/01/2004] <Gar> Sure are a lot of you
[21:39 16/01/2004] <@craig> There IS more than corn in Indiana.
[21:40 16/01/2004] <jim> rasboras would work to
[21:40 16/01/2004] <sully> what is a good lfs in bloomington? my daughter and i were looking earlier this week
[21:40 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> True dat
[21:40 16/01/2004] <Noname> cool..
[21:40 16/01/2004] <jim> Glimpse of Nature is the only remaining store other than Petsmart
[21:41 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Petsmart....the evil Empire!
[21:41 16/01/2004] <sully> i will check it out next week. was at petsmart last week
[21:41 16/01/2004] <Noname> lol
[21:41 16/01/2004] <jim> I have gotten several hillstreams there, but you never know.
[21:41 16/01/2004] <jim> Its kind of a hippy store. There are two iguanas wandering around and they always play Zepplin
[21:41 16/01/2004] <sully> i am into SA's. but try to keep up on lots of things fishy
[21:41 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Round here, they wouldn't know a hillstream if you showed them a picture of it.....just got a printer....might try that!
[21:42 16/01/2004] <sully> i can get along with that
[21:42 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Toronto is BIG into SA Cichlids
[21:42 16/01/2004] <sully> i want to go to Toronto,
[21:42 16/01/2004] <@craig> I guess I should buy ink carts for my printer so I can start pushing pictures like Jim does.
[21:43 16/01/2004] <jim> The owner is cool, and if you look on the wall by the cash register, there is my name and # and a note to call if they get cool Borneo Suckers
[21:43 16/01/2004] <sully> lol
[21:43 16/01/2004] <jim> My printer died so I can't hawk the pics
[21:43 16/01/2004] <@Jessica> lol
[21:43 16/01/2004] <Noname> Toronto is big in SA cichlids, wha>? where? how? (wasnt paying close attension)
[21:43 16/01/2004] <@craig> My ink carts dried up..
[21:43 16/01/2004] <jim> SULLY have you ever gone to SPECKS in AVON?
[21:43 16/01/2004] <@Jessica> um... get new ones?
[21:44 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Just got this Epson 825 seems to use ink quick
[21:44 16/01/2004] <@craig> Jess, I rarely if ever use my printers, that's why the carts dry up.
[21:44 16/01/2004] <sully> no---i was saying to craig the other day i am now starting a mission to visit every store in the area--it is on list
[21:44 16/01/2004] <jim> It is a great store
[21:44 16/01/2004] <sully> i mostly shop at The Reef--they will be expanding the SA area a lot during the next couple of months as they expand the stor
[21:45 16/01/2004] <jim> They have lots of plants, and cool fish and they are knowledgable
[21:45 16/01/2004] <jim> I noticed that the other day
[21:45 16/01/2004] <sully> i have some anubias from that store--met one of their guys at a local club swap meet
[21:45 16/01/2004] <Noname> I never knew Toronto was in to South American Ciclids, then again, I didnt know that the GTA was into fish at all except fot the one Big Al's, I wonder if there are any fish clubs, I cannot wait for Russ's fish society thing next week...
[21:45 16/01/2004] <jim> Probably Jonathan
[21:46 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Sorry I may have misinterprated. I meant South African...Rift-Lake Cichs
[21:46 16/01/2004] <Noname> bah
[21:46 16/01/2004] <Noname> (runs away in shame, and tired-ness)
[21:47 16/01/2004] <sully> New World Martin--my fault
[21:47 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> My wife used to breed SA Dwarfs. We have a Satanoperca and Uaru, plus a Pike
[21:49 16/01/2004] <sully> i am breeding the german now. starting down the road with an apisto tank--am looking for Uaru for dinner next weekend
[21:49 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Our's would make a nice meal! She will eat the salad for you
[21:50 16/01/2004] <sully> guys at the lfs tried to sell me three uaru (cheap). they knew i would keep them alive--i just don't have enough plants to feed them
[21:51 16/01/2004] <sully> felt bad---they died in the store
[21:51 16/01/2004] <Noname> :(
[21:51 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Funnily, enough, our's doesn't touch the Swords, Crypts Anubias, etc in the 6 foot tank, but will annihilate a big Romain Lettuce leaf in about an hour
[21:51 16/01/2004] <sully> i would have thought at least the crypts out of that group
[21:52 16/01/2004] <sully> can't keep anubias in the tank i would have put them in---a black ghost enjoys it too much
[21:52 16/01/2004] <@craig> How is Momfish Martin?
[21:52 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> They're a big, chunky species (forget the name) but in our Clown Loach tank, the same ones get holes punched in them.
[21:53 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Momfish is good. She's out at the mo' picking up the girls
[21:53 16/01/2004] <sully> my clowns ignore the plants--except to sleep in them or uproot them
[21:54 16/01/2004] <Noname> farewell, Im off bye all ^_^
[21:54 16/01/2004] <sully> night noname
[21:54 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Bye Noname:)
[21:54 16/01/2004] <@Jessica> my clowns are good, except over christmas, lol
[21:54 16/01/2004] <Noname> ^_^
[21:54 16/01/2004] <jim> I need to get off here too.
[21:54 16/01/2004] <jim> Have a good evening ,all
[21:54 16/01/2004] <@Jessica> jim, thanks for coming
[21:54 16/01/2004] <sully> jim, nice to have met
[21:54 16/01/2004] <@Jessica> have a good night
[21:54 16/01/2004] <megan> goodnight jim
[21:54 16/01/2004] <@craig> Take care Jim, thanks for stopping by.
[21:54 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> I'll be gone when everyone else gets home too
[21:55 16/01/2004] <jim> Good job martin
[21:55 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Thanx
[21:55 16/01/2004] <jim> Later
[21:55 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Alligator
[21:55 16/01/2004] <@Jessica> :D
[21:55 16/01/2004] <sully> i too am going to wander away--my wife wants some attention
[21:55 16/01/2004] <@Jessica> buy sully
[21:55 16/01/2004] <@craig> cya Sully..
[21:55 16/01/2004] <@Jessica> see ya next week, pro'lly
[21:55 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> "Attention"?
[21:56 16/01/2004] <sully> martin great job. i spent all that time brushing up and everybody else asked the good questions--lol
[21:56 16/01/2004] <sully> thats what we call it
[21:56 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Haha! Probably answered yours by reading up?
[21:57 16/01/2004] <sully> no, i just wanted to have some decent ones in case nobody asked anything---wanted to make you work
[21:57 16/01/2004] <sully> lol
[21:57 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> You got any left?
[21:57 16/01/2004] <sully> g'night
[21:57 16/01/2004] <sully> no
[21:57 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> G'night then
[21:57 16/01/2004] <@craig> When they start dropping Martin, its like lemmings to a cliff..
[21:58 16/01/2004] <@Jessica> lol
[21:58 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Craig. How does one see this transcript?
[21:58 16/01/2004] <russ> still here:-)
[21:58 16/01/2004] <@craig> Martin, I'll put it up on my web server somewhere.
[21:59 16/01/2004] <@craig> If my house stays a relatively constant 75F I won't need a heater right?
[22:00 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Got back quick tho'. You won't need heaters Craig
[22:00 16/01/2004] <@craig> Cool, that means I can still use the 10 as a QT..
[22:00 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Gotta luv it!
[22:00 16/01/2004] <@craig> That'll be six, soon to be 7 when the 180 comes home..
[22:01 16/01/2004] <russ> would it have been better to have had those windows/links already open?
[22:01 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Next time :)
[22:01 16/01/2004] <@craig> Russ, best bet would be to have the URLs in a text document some where so that you can cut and paste them.
[22:01 16/01/2004] <russ> cut and paste...not copy and paste?
[22:01 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> They were in a Word Pad Doc
[22:02 16/01/2004] <@craig> Cut/copy, schmopy. Yeah. ;-D
[22:02 16/01/2004] <russ> :-)
[22:02 16/01/2004] <@craig> Martin, you did fine.
[22:02 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Whatever pastes yer boat
[22:02 16/01/2004] <russ> Just trying to get some things lined up for next week;-)
[22:02 16/01/2004] <russ> lol
[22:03 16/01/2004] <@craig> You also set a record for attendance on my IRC server too.
[22:03 16/01/2004] <russ> Martin, that was excellent information you presented:-)
[22:03 16/01/2004] <russ> I counted 22?
[22:04 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Yeah Russ, I'd say prep is the required thing. I did a doc with small paragraphs. Reular length ones (as I write) will get you bumped out if you Sift/Insert them
[22:04 16/01/2004] <russ> ah, thanks:-)
[22:04 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Do some test runs here. That's what I did
[22:05 16/01/2004] <@craig> According to my server stats, 20 Russ.
[22:05 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> There was 20 people here? WOW
[22:05 16/01/2004] <@Jessica> kewl
[22:05 16/01/2004] <russ> I've never tried cutting and pasting in a chat window. Everyone assurs me that it will work, but 'Murphy' is one of my best friends and is always on my right shoulder...lol
[22:06 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Momfish asked me how many and I told her I was too busy to look :)
[22:06 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> THAT was the Irish guy who made me end up on one of my links then?
[22:06 16/01/2004] <@craig> He's an ebil bastage..
[22:07 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> A bar steward
[22:07 16/01/2004] <@craig> Like I said. ;-)
[22:07 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> I've really enjoyed this Craig. Thanks for the request
[22:08 16/01/2004] <@craig> Martin, thank you, the first session was quite a success. I'm glad it was you who got to kick the chat sessions off.
[22:08 16/01/2004] <@Jessica> you did very well :D
[22:09 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> So this was a first? NOW he tells me...what was that ebil thing again?
[22:09 16/01/2004] <russ> Yes, it went very well.
[22:09 16/01/2004] <@craig> Yes Martin, this was the maiden voyage. ;-)
[22:09 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> I'd have bought Champagne if I'd known.
[22:10 16/01/2004] <@craig> What kind of wine do you like?
[22:10 16/01/2004] <russ> I would have helped partake in it:-)
[22:11 16/01/2004] <@craig> Nigel wants to buy you a bottle for fighting your way through the evening. :-)
[22:11 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Only sweet German white in small quantities. I'm virtually TT. Just don't like the taste of alchohol
[22:11 16/01/2004] <russ> Auslaser?
[22:11 16/01/2004] <russ> sp?
[22:11 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Mind you...Pina Coladas :{
[22:11 16/01/2004] <@craig> A reisling or liebfraumilch would do fine then.
[22:12 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> That'll do me!
[22:12 16/01/2004] <russ> I still have a bottle of 1976:-)
[22:12 16/01/2004] <@craig> I guess I can relax now..
[22:12 16/01/2004] <@craig> I was watching the servers like an expectant father to make sure I could catch any problems as they came up.
[22:13 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> The best wine I ever tasted was slugged out of an unlabelled bottle off a German wine workers tractor trailer in the Mosel Valley
[22:13 16/01/2004] <russ> :-)
[22:13 16/01/2004] <russ> 2003 should be a good year over there also
[22:13 16/01/2004] <russ> was very warm
[22:13 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> It was this Vineyard worker's daily plonk.
[22:14 16/01/2004] <russ> :-)
[22:14 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> He gave us a lift on his trailer, then insisted we drink
[22:14 16/01/2004] <russ> of coarse
[22:15 16/01/2004] <@craig> I used to have an albanian that worked for me that made some killer brandy..
[22:15 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Hospitable people the Germans. They always invite the World to their wars :)
[22:15 16/01/2004] <@Jessica> lol
[22:15 16/01/2004] <russ> lol
[22:15 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> My name is German actually
[22:16 16/01/2004] <russ> I guess we'd get pretty bored without all the excitement they seem to generate now and then:-)
[22:16 16/01/2004] <russ> Mine also:-)
[22:16 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Great fishkeepers tho'
[22:17 16/01/2004] <@craig> They learned it from the Dutch..
[22:17 16/01/2004] <russ> ah, yes. That they are!
[22:17 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Harold at the Menagerie was getting Botia sidthimunki in, but they all ended up in Germany....buying power rules
[22:18 16/01/2004] <russ> :-(
[22:18 16/01/2004] <@craig> Martin, I am so lucky, Doug keeps them in stock now.
[22:18 16/01/2004] <@craig> He always has at least 10 at any given time.
[22:18 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Great. I didn't actually want any, but it would have been nice to see some again
[22:19 16/01/2004] <@craig> When I get the 180 set up and my 75's fish over into it I'm going to move my sids and cherry barbs into the 75.
[22:19 16/01/2004] <@craig> When its all said and done I'll have 25 sids and 30 cherry barbs.
[22:19 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> KLast ones I saw were in England. Probably 500 half-inch ones in one tank!
[22:20 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> That should be an awesome tank Craig
[22:21 16/01/2004] <@craig> I know Martin.. I'm not sure which has me more excited, the hillies rivertank or the sids in the 75.
[22:21 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Each has it's merits
[22:21 16/01/2004] <@craig> I'm going to do the rivertank thing right tho..
[22:22 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Good
[22:22 16/01/2004] <@craig> When I first started I killed two beaus.. :-(
[22:22 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> What equipment did you get?
[22:23 16/01/2004] <@craig> I have a Perfecto 20L, to hagen 201 powerheads and the PVC (elbows, tees, etc)..
[22:23 16/01/2004] <@craig> +w two
[22:23 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Maybe YOU didn't kill them. Getting good ones is half the battle. Jim and I can tell you what to look for
[22:23 16/01/2004] <@craig> Martin, I didn't have the right setup then..
[22:23 16/01/2004] <@craig> I will now though.
[22:24 16/01/2004] <@craig> They were good stock, Jim can attest to the fish at Aquarium World.
[22:26 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> The 201s pump 126 gal/hr, so that's 252 gal/hr.So you'll be moving the water over 100 times/hour...good!
[22:27 16/01/2004] <@craig> I've read your articles Martin, NUMEROUS times. ;-D
[22:28 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> How long is a 20 long> Forgive me, I'm still not up to speed on US sizing
[22:28 16/01/2004] <Gar> What do you use for filters?
[22:28 16/01/2004] <@craig> I'm gonna shorten the intake tube on a penguin 170 and put one of them on there.
[22:28 16/01/2004] <@craig> One sec Martin..
[22:28 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> (He measures) ;)
[22:29 16/01/2004] <@craig> 30 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 12 3/4
[22:29 16/01/2004] <@craig> Actually no, I was digging up a link from the Krib. :-D
[22:29 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> That's cool.
[22:30 16/01/2004] <@craig> 1/2 PVC shouldn't restrict the circulation should it?
[22:31 16/01/2004] <@craig> I do have a bazillion questions to ask, was just too busy during the chat proper to ask them. :-/
[22:31 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Well some, but your pumps are smaller than mine. I DID some measuring. Your tank is the same as our Q-tank
[22:31 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> I thought our Q was 10 gal...shows what I know :)
[22:32 16/01/2004] <@craig> Its a 20. :-D
[22:33 16/01/2004] <@craig> Where should I put the powerfilter?
[22:34 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> What sort of filter?
[22:35 16/01/2004] <@craig> Penguin 170..
[22:35 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Hang on?
[22:35 16/01/2004] <@craig> Yep.
[22:36 16/01/2004] <@craig> I just had an idea! :-D
[22:36 16/01/2004] <Beatles_Addict> So this is where everyone's at?
[22:36 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Here's what I've got on the 65.Filtration: My tank has 3 intake sponges, each 4" tall by 4" diameter. These provide pretty good biological filtration with water being sucked by the Aquaclear 802s. In addition, the 65 gallon tank has an Aquaclear 300 and 150 hanging on the back, with an Eheim 2213 and Fluval 203 cannisters. The Eheim has carbon in it.
[22:37 16/01/2004] <@craig> What if I put it on the powerhead end of the tank and instead of using the intake tube, rigged up some 1/2 vinyl tubing so that the intake is at the end of the tank with the sponges?
[22:38 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Yeah, I considered that sort of thing, but in a small tank I think it's just easier to leave it standard. Your 201s will give enough current.
[22:39 16/01/2004] <@craig> I wasn't really going for current, I was look more towards oxygen content, the outflow from the powerfilter would cause enough turbulence to increase the O2 right?
[22:39 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> It all helps
[22:40 16/01/2004] <@craig> I hope I am not trying to over think this, but I want this to go so right it isn't funny.
[22:40 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Using air to the venturi on the p/head(s) is good, but noisy. Depends where your tank is situated and your tolerance level :)
[22:40 16/01/2004] <@craig> I like the sound of running water. ;-D
[22:41 16/01/2004] <@craig> Except when the bathroom is occupied.
[22:41 16/01/2004] <russ> if you have the air ventury on a rubber tube. don't let it drape over and past the water line on the outside of the tank
[22:41 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Do you know how many times Momfish has made me get up in the middle of the night because the 120 in our bedroom has evapouration and the spraybar is exposed?
[22:42 16/01/2004] <@craig> Oh, another question.. :-)
[22:42 16/01/2004] <@craig> Does the mulm tend to accumulate at the sponge end of the tank? (Stupid Q but I gotta ask)
[22:42 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Russ, you will find that the depth that the p/head suts in these tanks means the venturi won't work. You have to use a small air pump to supply it.
[22:43 16/01/2004] <russ> ah
[22:44 16/01/2004] <russ> I always add a Tetra Luft pump to the intake of my protien skimmers:-)
[22:44 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> These fish are small and not gross polluters. In my first tank, I found that the 3 intake sponges held all the poop easily. The tanks stay very clean looking which is nice. Mind you, with the filtration I'm using now, you'd expect it
[22:45 16/01/2004] <russ> I did have a problem in the past with Marineland powerheads draining a tank with the ventury hooked up and draped below the water line
[22:45 16/01/2004] <@craig> Next stupid Q...
[22:46 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> :0
[22:46 16/01/2004] <@craig> When you feed, where do you drop the food in? Powerhead end of the tank? or?
[22:46 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> P/head end. The fish head there and upon arrival find the food is now up the other end :)
[22:47 16/01/2004] <@craig> So IOW, they have to work for it.
[22:47 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> But it circulates around so they get it. They learn to graze the sponges quickly
[22:47 16/01/2004] <russ> :-D
[22:47 16/01/2004] <@craig> Cool..
[22:47 16/01/2004] <@craig> I'm glad this is getting logged.. Very good stuff..
[22:47 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Despite loving algae, these fish go nuts for Bloodworm
[22:48 16/01/2004] <@craig> Frozen are okay?
[22:48 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Once thawed, yes :)
[22:48 16/01/2004] <@craig> Russ, if you can't tell, I have a deep fascination with these fish. :-)
[22:48 16/01/2004] <russ> I'm getting there myself;-)
[22:49 16/01/2004] <@craig> I will be good and thaw in a cup Martin, instead of my usual roll in the fingers in the tank routine. ;-)
[22:49 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> It's OK. You use my method. I was just joking
[22:49 16/01/2004] <@craig> I know you were joking. :-)
[22:50 16/01/2004] <@craig> I *think* that's all the questions I have..
[22:50 16/01/2004] <@craig> Russ, when you get a chance, check out Martin's pictures, these guys are beautiful to look at.
[22:50 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> That is AWESOME triming, because Momfish and the kids are back so I'm going. "Are you STILL on there?" she said.
[22:50 16/01/2004] <russ> I've got all the postested links bookmarked:-)
[22:51 16/01/2004] <@craig> Martin, again, thank you VERY much.
[22:51 16/01/2004] <russ> take care Martin, and thank you again:-)
[22:52 16/01/2004] <@Jessica> bye martin and thanks
[22:52 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Great. I will be uploading some recent pics to that gallery, but I've also sent Jeff Shafer masses to post on LOL.
[22:53 16/01/2004] <+MT-ED> Thanks everyone it was a lot of fun and I think I have Craig totally into overdrive now to get this tank up and running. Go for it dude!:) Bye All!