Chat transcripts

[20:02 26/03/2004] <@craig> Welcome to Live! Fishchat! Tonight our guest speaker is Sully, who will be speaking on Rams.
[20:03 26/03/2004] <@craig> Please hold your questions until after the presentation..
[20:03 26/03/2004] <@craig> Sully, take it away. :-)
[20:03 26/03/2004] <+sully> to start it will be a simple talk about Microgeophagus Ramirezi
[20:03 26/03/2004] <+sully> or the: German Ram; Blue Ram; Butterfly Cichlid; Gold Ram
[20:03 26/03/2004] <+sully> lots of names for the same fish
[20:04 26/03/2004] <+sully> the basics:
[20:04 26/03/2004] <+sully> Size: 3" SL for male and approx 2.5" female. Some Rams grow larger, some are smaller. As with people averages only give an indication not a reality by specimen."
[20:04 26/03/2004] <+sully> An exquisitely colored cichlid. The German Ram is often kept as single specimens or as pairs in community tanks by the hobbyist. Its' popularity is due to its incredible color (blue with black banding, yellow areas, red coloration at tips of fin and green hues) and its timid nature for a cichlid. A small fish it is easily incorporated into tanks as small as 10 gallons for a breeding pair.
[20:05 26/03/2004] <+sully> and often kept in pairs or mixed sex ratios that are not really conducive--but present a liveable situation
[20:05 26/03/2004] <+sully> Often referred to as "sensitive". "brittle", "fragile", "hard to keep", "not for the beginner" and "a fish for the advanced fish keeper". Which is true if examined as an isolated species being sold to inexperienced fish keeper. In fact those statements can also be attributed as a reason why many "chain" stores do not sell the Ram.
[20:05 26/03/2004] <+sully> Let's start out with the basic question of "where do the specimens at the lfs come from"?
[20:06 26/03/2004] <+sully> Brittle? They are timid fish. Skittish and very aware of larger and fast moving fish in the aquarium. They become easily threatened and as a consequence around larger, fast moving fish. Which then results in disease and death issues.
[20:09 26/03/2004] <+sully> I have adopted a medicate first and ask questions later with this species. I tried the wait until disease symptoms are in evidence and then treat approach with minimal success.
[20:09 26/03/2004] <+sully> A couple of options are available when considering the disease issues. But, I always start with the assumption that they have at the very least external parasite problems and most likely some form of transit/handling induced bacterial issues.
[20:10 26/03/2004] <+sully> The first step taken when introducing "new" rams to qt is to treat with a simple regime of Parasite Clear, the Jungle fizzy tablets. I treat and leave water for 48 hours. Change 50%, introduce carbon and sit back for another couple of days. At which point I treat for internal parasites. Particularly spironucleosis, one of the suspected HITH causing parasites.
[20:10 26/03/2004] <+sully> I use either Levamisole hydrochloride at 200mg/10 gallons or since it I more readily available TetraMin treated food sticks containing metronidazole. There have been periodic instances of bloat during qt, at which point fish are not eating. I treat with Paragon (if levamisole is not readily available) and maracyn II. The Paragon for parasites and the maracyn II for internal gram-negative bacteria.
[20:10 26/03/2004] <+sully> Because the ram in its natural environment is in a low ph environment they are susceptible to very specific bacteria if your tanks are maintained to replicate the same environment. For a listing of diseases common to Rams here is a link that helps id the problems you may confront
[20:10 26/03/2004] <+sully> http://www.fishbase.org/Diseases/diseasesList.cfm?id=12305&stockcode=12631
[20:11 26/03/2004] <+sully> tou become familiar with metronidazole and praziquantel when dealing with rams
[20:11 26/03/2004] <+sully> Maintained in higher ph environments opens up the ram to many bacteria that do not survive in low ph tanks but thrive and flourish in higher ph tanks. Flexibacter bacterium is one that comes to mind quickly. If you have acclimated wild caught, or hobbyist bred fish that come from low ph environments the odds are that your fish will not be able to mount an adequate immune to these bacteria due to the lack of appropriate antigens.
[20:12 26/03/2004] <+sully> one of basic symptoms is the false fungus and tail and fin rot--often leading into columnaris
[20:13 26/03/2004] <+sully> but given the appropriate medical support they make it thru the first few bouts of bacterial problems and begin to cope with the problems on their own
[20:13 26/03/2004] <+sully> While I have read repeatedly that these fish are medication sensitive I have found that too be the case only when forced to treat after visible, advanced symptoms become present.
[20:14 26/03/2004] <+sully> disease is up front in this topic because that is where the typical hobbyist encounters the problems
[20:14 26/03/2004] <+sully> they bring the fish home--acclimate and then 24-48 hours later the rapid gill movement begins. the hanging at the top of the tank kicks in
[20:15 26/03/2004] <+sully> the lack of appetite occurs and within 12-24 hours of the first symptom the fish is dead
[20:15 26/03/2004] <+sully> if you treat for parasites initially then you typically avoid most problems
[20:15 26/03/2004] <+sully> Enough about disease, I have encountered it within the first two weeks or had to wait 6-8 months for the internal parasites to surface and experience rapid fish kill. The time spent with this part has been so that you know what you are looking at and can possibly treat proactively
[20:15 26/03/2004] <+sully> As mentioned earlier these are a South American fish. Here is a link to help get a handle on a more precise distribution.
[20:16 26/03/2004] <+sully> it is important to get an idea of where they come from because it allows you to get the tank decor and tank temps in line
[20:16 26/03/2004] <+sully> as well as basic water conditions
[20:17 26/03/2004] <+sully> The tank. First the Ram is generally a more timid cichlid. It does not like being with larger fast moving fish. It will cohabitate nicely with some of the larger, slower moving species like angels and discus. Other great tank mates are smaller fish like tetras, otos2026..
[20:17 26/03/2004] <+sully> The ram is not a cave dweller or brooder. Unless it is insecure in its environment. Some caves should be provided for the occasional hiding, but if a ram takes up residence it is usually indicative of an aggression or health issue adversely impacting the fish. Interestingly the use of caves may occur at egg laying and brood care time.
[20:17 26/03/2004] <+sully> But, most times the eggs will be laid in an open, smooth area, on a rock, broad leaf or shallow pit in substrate. I have provided the small flowerpots for breeding and brood rearing and these have been utilized by some pairs and scorned by others.
[20:17 26/03/2004] <+sully> Plants are a must. The more the better. They will require an open area to frolic and play, but they can be quite content spending hours in the underbrush. Or, in small open areas in or to the side of plant growth
[20:18 26/03/2004] <+sully> Space needs. I try to provide between 2-3 square feet per pair. Less than that and constant conflict seems to occur. In my tanks with more than a single pair markers are provided that clearly delineate territory bounds.
[20:18 26/03/2004] <+sully> the space becomes an issue when kept with a tank that is stocked with other small bottom and nid level dwellers
[20:18 26/03/2004] <+sully> Water?
[20:19 26/03/2004] <+sully> The wild caught rams and many of the hobby bred rams come from low ph, low TDS environments, and low hardness. Many of the farm-bred rams seem to indicate a tolerance for higher ph, higher tds and higher hardness waters. I know of the higher ph types of rams anecdotally, not through personal experience.
[20:19 26/03/2004] <+sully> personal experience has forced me to attempt a sustained ph no higher than 7.2, gh no higher than 9 and kh no higher than 5-6
[20:19 26/03/2004] <+sully> above that i kill this species
[20:20 26/03/2004] <+sully> at those levels i achieve no breeding success
[20:20 26/03/2004] <+sully> To achieve the balanced that seems to work for the rams the ph is maintained at approximately 6.6, kh around 2-3 kh and gh levels between 4-7. I use peat beds in the tank to lower the ph and RO water mixed with tap water at either 80/20 or 90/10 depending upon my mood to help get TDS level down. I started with 2" peat beds and 2" gravel substrate layered above the peat.
[20:20 26/03/2004] <+sully> the fear of hydrogen sulfide in the tank has caused a small change in the way i set up the tanks now
[20:21 26/03/2004] <+sully> At this point I have the peat bed to 1" sphagnum peat and approximately 1" gravel. I add trace elements to the tank for the plants, but the result is that the minerals are also for the fish. The mineralization of waste and decaying organics (with the trace elements) seem to provide an environment that is conducive to active, healthy, breeding specimens.
[20:21 26/03/2004] <+sully> Feeding the ram
[20:21 26/03/2004] <+sully> Flake foods, freeze dried shrimp/krill, bloodworms, raw veggies, and live foods. Nothing particularly special. Rams are primarily mid to bottom level feeders so some care and attention should be provided to assure that the appropriate amount of food makes it to them, if not they seem to be content munching on the foliage.
[20:22 26/03/2004] <+sully> which brings us to another excellent reason for plants with SA's that are small enough to allow their continued growth and existance
[20:22 26/03/2004] <+sully> HIYH
[20:22 26/03/2004] * +sully thinks HITH might be more appropriate
[20:22 26/03/2004] <+sully> diet is one of the reasons talked about for the emergence of HITH
[20:23 26/03/2004] <+sully> anecdotal evidence seems to indicate a lower level of HITH problems is susceptible species in heavily planted tanks
[20:23 26/03/2004] <+sully> it seems that the diet is maintained better with plants to nibble on
[20:24 26/03/2004] <+sully> Once you get through the initial Ram "health problems they are a very easy fish to maintain. They are sensitive to pollutants in water and depending upon bio loads you should change at least 1/2 the water once or twice a week.
[20:24 26/03/2004] <+sully> These fish are solid evidence "freshwater fish need freshwater".
[20:24 26/03/2004] <+sully> Which brings us back to the level of fish keeping skill. Nothing more than an awareness of potential disease occurrence and the simple act of performing regular water changes is required. Hardly the sign of a sensitive fish, or the skill level of a hobbyist.
[20:24 26/03/2004] <+sully> thanks for the time hope it was not too long winded and boring
[20:25 26/03/2004] <@craig> Nicely done Sully!
[20:25 26/03/2004] <@craig> Ready for some questions?
[20:25 26/03/2004] <+sully> thanks--tried to keep it in english--did you notice the spelling though?
[20:25 26/03/2004] <@craig> If you have a question for Sully, please type: /query Craig I have a question
[20:25 26/03/2004] <+sully> if there are any i will try
[20:25 26/03/2004] <@craig> Good enough for our purposes Sully. ;-)
[20:26 26/03/2004] <@Jessica> when you suggest live plants as an addition to their diet, is there any prefered plants, or are there veges that one can use as supplements as well?
[20:27 26/03/2004] <+sully> i use zuchinni, peas, lettuce, spinach and just the general variety of easy to grow plants
[20:27 26/03/2004] <+sully> Hygros, rotella's, swords,...
[20:27 26/03/2004] <@craig> Duckweed. :-D
[20:27 26/03/2004] <+sully> no. not in my tanks any longer--lol
[20:28 26/03/2004] <@craig> Any other questions about rams for Sully?
[20:28 26/03/2004] <+sully> i do have a couple of types of anubias that they really like for staying under/in
[20:28 26/03/2004] <+sully> and a couple times for eggs
[20:29 26/03/2004] <@craig> I have noticed that mine like being under the shade of my a. frateri.
[20:29 26/03/2004] <+sully> let me ask a question--
[20:29 26/03/2004] <@craig> Go.
[20:29 26/03/2004] <+sully> rams are often talked about as advanced fish
[20:29 26/03/2004] <+sully> what does anybody think constitutes an advanced fishkeeper?
[20:30 26/03/2004] <@craig> Any takers?
[20:30 26/03/2004] <@Fletch> yes.
[20:30 26/03/2004] <@craig> Put your query in the que: /query Craig Let me in
[20:30 26/03/2004] <@craig> Alan, go when ready. :-D
[20:30 26/03/2004] <@Fletch> k
[20:31 26/03/2004] <@Fletch> to me, an advanced aquatist will know what to do and what not to do, and will take the apropriate steps to correct a problem instinctively before it results in fatality. also,
[20:31 26/03/2004] <+sully> so, how do we get there?
[20:32 26/03/2004] <@Fletch> an advanced fishkeeper will have healthy fish and that health will show in their activity, feeding habits and colour.
[20:32 26/03/2004] <@craig> (I've got a question, but I'll wait until this plays out.)
[20:32 26/03/2004] <@Fletch> We get there...
[20:33 26/03/2004] <@Fletch> by sharing ideas and opinions with other experienced aquarists, such as those in this very community.
[20:33 26/03/2004] <@Fletch> ...by talking to as many people as possible
[20:33 26/03/2004] <@Fletch> and by weighing the opinions and ideas of the people we talk to against common logic and what information we already have.
[20:34 26/03/2004] <@Fletch> experience is the key.
[20:34 26/03/2004] <@Fletch> Craig, the floor is yours :-)
[20:34 26/03/2004] <@craig> Sully, in your opinion, what role do you think transportation (shipping, handling, etc) of these fish plays in the health of these fish?
[20:34 26/03/2004] <+sully> initially everything
[20:35 26/03/2004] <+sully> the shipping handling issue is that which creates the stress that lets the gill and other parasites take hold
[20:35 26/03/2004] <+sully> the immune systems get compromised because the fish are drained
[20:35 26/03/2004] <+sully> and they are incapable of responding to problems
[20:36 26/03/2004] <@craig> Are there any specific things to look for when viewing rams in the dealers tanks that can help someone wanting to purchase them?
[20:36 26/03/2004] <+sully> give them time to recover--kill as many of the diesease pathogens as possible initially and they should be robust long term
[20:36 26/03/2004] <+sully> look for gill movement with this fish
[20:36 26/03/2004] <+sully> any rapid movement and avoid the fish
[20:36 26/03/2004] <+sully> any little flecks of fungus or bacteria and leave them there
[20:37 26/03/2004] <+sully> if they do not exhibit the famous ram "dropsy" position when confronting tankmates think twid
[20:37 26/03/2004] <@craig> Dropsy?
[20:37 26/03/2004] <+sully> if the pelvic fins do not extend when in the "dropsy" position watch the guy for awhile--he may be damaged goods
[20:38 26/03/2004] <@craig> Ahh, flaring of all the fins.
[20:38 26/03/2004] <+sully> dropsy position is when the caudal tail is up higher than the head--they are swimming in a head down position
[20:38 26/03/2004] <+sully> they usually are at 45 degree angles
[20:39 26/03/2004] <+sully> and if you see the pelvic fins full of reds and blues you are probably safe
[20:39 26/03/2004] <+sully> the bars should be evidenced to some degree
[20:39 26/03/2004] <+sully> the dorsal should periodically flare
[20:40 26/03/2004] <+sully> fin clamping in this fish is a serious clue to health
[20:40 26/03/2004] <+sully> as are the ;ittle fungus like spots
[20:40 26/03/2004] <@craig> Ready for the free for all?
[20:41 26/03/2004] <+sully> once the rapid gill movement starts you have somewhere between 12-24 hours to solve problem
[20:42 26/03/2004] <@craig> Sully, thank you for sharing your experience with these fish and most of all your time to be here.
[20:42 26/03/2004] <+sully> to chat room?
[20:42 26/03/2004] <@craig> The floor is now open for general discussion.
[20:42 26/03/2004] <@craig> Not yet, let people clap first. ;-)
[20:42 26/03/2004] * @Jessica applauds
[20:42 26/03/2004] <JP> :B
[20:43 26/03/2004] <@Jessica> thanks sully :-D
[20:43 26/03/2004] <G> Nice chat Sully
[20:43 26/03/2004] <G> Here's a query....
[20:43 26/03/2004] <JP> Great job.
[20:43 26/03/2004] <+sully> thanks to the folks that took the time to come
[20:43 26/03/2004] <+sully> ok g
[20:43 26/03/2004] <@craig> One thing I wanted to add, besides duckweed, they like to nibble on hygro too. :-D
[20:43 26/03/2004] <russ> Sully, that was a very good one, thanks :-)
[20:43 26/03/2004] <G> Have you noticed any deformities amongst the tank raised ramirezi?
[20:44 26/03/2004] <G> I know that the bolivian rams I've seen that were captive raised all have a bulldog-like look about their face...meaning its flat
[20:44 26/03/2004] <+sully> yes--high level of belly sliders--and crooked spines along with a fuller body head to tail
[20:44 26/03/2004] <G> this is regardless of supplier too...have seen the bolivians like this many places...at least around here in Ohio.
[20:44 26/03/2004] <+sully> the colors get washed out seriously if you do not keep changing gene pool
[20:45 26/03/2004] <+sully> the other issue seems to be the front dorsal spines
[20:45 26/03/2004] <rewm> < bought six rams around a week ago and they have very little color
[20:45 26/03/2004] <G> I've noticed it seems harder to tell sexes based on the dorsal fin in TRs
[20:46 26/03/2004] <+sully> little yellow up front, faint black bar and a paler blue body?
[20:46 26/03/2004] <+sully> or heavy black bars and washed out color?
[20:46 26/03/2004] <rewm> heavy black stripes and a greenish metallic color
[20:47 26/03/2004] <+sully> i use the spangles up near the dorsal fin, in the black bars as the best indicator of sex
[20:47 26/03/2004] <+sully> rewm--it might be stress
[20:47 26/03/2004] <+sully> give them some time to settle in and it might change for you
[20:48 26/03/2004] <rewm> they look happy ..lots of flaring and they are active
[20:48 26/03/2004] <+sully> mine are rarely very active unless it is territorial dispute issue
[20:48 26/03/2004] <G> if they aren't too young, looking for fish with red in the belly seems to be a good indicator of a female
[20:49 26/03/2004] <+sully> yea--that works as well. and a little easier to see than the spangles in lots of juveniles
[20:49 26/03/2004] <rewm> i have 6 in a 20 g .. is that a reasonable amount?
[20:49 26/03/2004] <+sully> but, like i said to somebody in chat one day--the easiest way to tell is to see which one lays the eggs
[20:50 26/03/2004] <G> I think there's some experience involved too...the more time you spend around the Rams and many fish in general, it becomes almost second nature sexing the fish
[20:50 26/03/2004] <+sully> well lets see--how big is a twenty?
[20:50 26/03/2004] <G> yeah...eggs are a great indicator
[20:50 26/03/2004] <+sully> i keep a pair in 29's and two pairs in a 40 breeder
[20:50 26/03/2004] <rewm> around 2' bye 1' bye 1 1/2' tall
[20:50 26/03/2004] <G> I had a customer who thought his ram was male, said it looked like a male and everything, but it laid eggs...
[20:50 26/03/2004] <+sully> my bet is activity is a consequence of lack of room
[20:51 26/03/2004] <+sully> G it happened to me with one of the females--she fooled me--but not her mate--lol
[20:52 26/03/2004] <G> Only down side was he was then overly skeptical...every fish I picked out as a male he swore was a female...and he didn't believe that it was generally the males that got the color...
[20:52 26/03/2004] <G> had to pull out books and show him...even then he was doubtful.
[20:52 26/03/2004] <+sully> rewm--i would try no more than 4 in a twenty and that is a serious push of the limit--they will stress long term
[20:52 26/03/2004] <+sully> and if you have more than 1 female someone will be dead
[20:53 26/03/2004] <rewm> i think i have 3 male 3 female
[20:53 26/03/2004] <+sully> just like with our breed of female--they hate to share the guy
[20:53 26/03/2004] <rewm> lots of caves and plants
[20:53 26/03/2004] <+sully> if they are using caves much they are stressed--unlike apistos these guys are not cave dwellers--they are cave hiders
[20:54 26/03/2004] <rewm> they dont seem to be in the caves at all ..just when i first put them in the tank
[20:54 26/03/2004] <+sully> you'll probably be just fine
[20:55 26/03/2004] <+sully> but watch very carefully--stress to disease to death is fast
[20:55 26/03/2004] <rewm> have you had much experience with the gold rams
[20:55 26/03/2004] <rewm> ok i will
[20:56 26/03/2004] <+sully> they are the same fish--just a color morph
[20:56 26/03/2004] <+sully> one that does not last long in wild
[20:56 26/03/2004] <rewm> ahh
[20:56 26/03/2004] <+sully> they are bred to that color
[20:56 26/03/2004] <+sully> make esy targets in the natural biotope
[20:57 26/03/2004] <rewm> my 20 has a fluval 304 filter..they seem to like the fast water
[20:58 26/03/2004] <rewm> thanks for the info Sully !
[20:58 26/03/2004] <+sully> i have not had much experience with them in "fast" water. I use AC 300's with the output dampened
[20:58 26/03/2004] <+sully> they love clean water though and that ought to do it
[20:59 26/03/2004] <rewm> hopefully they will ..they are my favorite fish so far
[21:00 26/03/2004] <+sully> one of my favorites as well
[21:01 26/03/2004] <@Jessica> really? ;-)
[21:01 26/03/2004] <+sully> lol
[21:01 26/03/2004] <rewm> yup ...ive never had loaches
[21:02 26/03/2004] <@Jessica> lol.. not my implications..
[21:02 26/03/2004] <rewm> they even beat my pirahna's
[21:02 26/03/2004] <+sully> i have one tank of rams with 4 sids in there--they seem to get along great with loaches
[21:02 26/03/2004] <@Jessica> sully's gotten impulse buys on rams (that i'm aware of);-)
[21:02 26/03/2004] <+sully> and almost any fish that is swimming--lol
[21:02 26/03/2004] * @craig whistles about the sids
[21:02 26/03/2004] <@Jessica> LOL
[21:02 26/03/2004] <@Jessica> hehe
[21:03 26/03/2004] <+sully> yea-those sids came out of craigs tank
[21:03 26/03/2004] <+sully> roflmao
[21:03 26/03/2004] <russ> Sully, I totally agree with you on the space requirements for this fish, even though they are of the smaller cichlids
[21:03 26/03/2004] <+sully> russ, i played with lots of populations in different tanks. 3 sq ft seems to be ideal
[21:03 26/03/2004] <+sully> 2.5 works
[21:04 26/03/2004] <+sully> just not as well--and i am talking pairs
[21:04 26/03/2004] <russ> The ones I have had breed for me were in 20 gal H tanks. Tied 15 gals, 20 Longs, but the additional depth of the highs were needed before they even thought about breeding :-)
[21:04 26/03/2004] <+sully> did you use any dithers
[21:04 26/03/2004] <rewm> mine is a 20 high
[21:05 26/03/2004] <russ> nope, no dithers. They were pretty spartan tanks with the exception of 'flower potted' plantings
[21:05 26/03/2004] <+sully> mine breed well in 40 breeder--or 29, or 75. 40 is least active breeding tank--probably something to do with age as well for me.
[21:06 26/03/2004] <+sully> lots of people talk about a 10 for breeding--i just dont like that idea
[21:06 26/03/2004] <+sully> it works--just not for me
[21:06 26/03/2004] <russ> I also used the 20Hs for single breeding pairs of Bolivian rams too
[21:07 26/03/2004] <russ> 10 gals are a bit small for these little 'roamers'
[21:07 26/03/2004] <+sully> i got 6 bolivians in my big tank--i will see if they breed--never went at it with that intent--they are a cool fish--hardy as hell and fairly colorful
[21:07 26/03/2004] <+sully> and they take no guff from anybody else--lol
[21:08 26/03/2004] <russ> the rams actually are capable of attaining sizes that are usually not documented ;-)
[21:08 26/03/2004] <+sully> i have seen 4" but that is biggest
[21:09 26/03/2004] <+sully> SL
[21:09 26/03/2004] <russ> yes, Ive had 4 inch breeders for the blues and pushing 5.5 with Bolivians
[21:09 26/03/2004] <+sully> yea--i saw a bolivian that size at the lfs yesterday--i almost bought it--lol
[21:09 26/03/2004] <+sully> first and only one
[21:09 26/03/2004] <russ> if one thinks a 2inch ram is a colorful fish, they should see a 4 incher....even more colorful:-)
[21:10 26/03/2004] <+sully> they had one of those at this years ACA. even made it into photos of the show--won some award--it was a beauty
[21:11 26/03/2004] <russ> the acclimation period and disease prospects that you covered were very true and is one of the main 'keys' to keeping and maintaining these fish :-)
[21:12 26/03/2004] <+sully> i had to learn that the hard way--killed 6 of them
[21:12 26/03/2004] <+sully> i should have done better research and been less trusting of lfs guy
[21:13 26/03/2004] <russ> the 'bullish shaped' head that was mentioned is unfortuneately common also..They should have a uniformed oval-bullet shape
[21:13 26/03/2004] <+sully> the fishbase.org site is a great place to really get into basic disease issues
[21:13 26/03/2004] <russ> yep:-)
[21:14 26/03/2004] <+sully> the wilds (and those closer to wild) are the best shapes. the breeders seem to be doing strange things in asia
[21:14 26/03/2004] <russ> you also mentioned a good point about low pH and low mineralized habitat that folks should be aware of:-)
[21:15 26/03/2004] <+sully> and now some of the old iron curtain countries have turned to fish as an income source--same issues seem to be comiung out of those fish also
[21:15 26/03/2004] <russ> yep :-(
[21:15 26/03/2004] <+sully> you can have ph well into 7's and still have success if Total Dissolved solids is down
[21:16 26/03/2004] <russ> some really good one are still comming out of Florida, Isreal, and Germany
[21:16 26/03/2004] <+sully> the TDS's seem to be key. they do not like heavy water
[21:16 26/03/2004] <russ> nope
[21:16 26/03/2004] <+sully> was not aware of isreal
[21:17 26/03/2004] <russ> they also have one of the best angelfish hatcheries:-)
[21:17 26/03/2004] * +sully is starting to reduce ram population and now you spring isreal on me--lol==might have to check that out
[21:19 26/03/2004] <+sully> back to my question--one of my answers to the level of fishkeeper is water changes. another research at front end--more than talking--hard data. and then getting ready in advance like alan mentioned
[21:21 26/03/2004] <russ> skill aquisition :-)
[21:21 26/03/2004] <+sully> jp--change that water--lol
[21:21 26/03/2004] <+sully> but so easy to pick up
[21:22 26/03/2004] <russ> expeience is tossed around around too casually. One can read a book to gain experience, but no skills would be achieved
[21:22 26/03/2004] <+sully> well crowd is thinning is this done? lol
[21:22 26/03/2004] <+sully> russ--i agree
[21:23 26/03/2004] <+sully> my problem is that people seem to be afraid of the information--or they dont like what they learn because it means they have been doing something wrong
[21:23 26/03/2004] <@craig> advanced=willing to learn and do, not advanced=thick headed and lazy IMHO
[21:23 26/03/2004] <+sully> roflmao
[21:24 26/03/2004] <russ> from the basic disipline of periodic water changes to 'learning' about you fish through observation, I think discipline is an important key in seperating the advanced fishkeeper from the regualr, casual hobbyist
[21:24 26/03/2004] <+sully> hell, if people just lurked at badmans for one month they would learn enough to turn into expert keepers
[21:24 26/03/2004] <+sully> if, as you said, they also learn to recognize fish behavior
[21:24 26/03/2004] <russ> ;-):-D
[21:25 26/03/2004] <+sully> well guys i gotta go home. my bride is probably wondering what i am up to by now
[21:25 26/03/2004] <@Jessica> sully thanks again
[21:25 26/03/2004] <+sully> thanks jess--appreciated the opportunity