Chat transcripts

[20:03 09/04/2004] <@craig> Welcome to tonight's installment of Live! Chat!
[20:03 09/04/2004] <@craig> Our guest speaker is one of our very own from Badmans, Geoff, better known as NoName.
[20:03 09/04/2004] <@craig> Please hold your questions until after the presentation.
[20:03 09/04/2004] <@craig> Geoff, welcome aboard, please begin when ready. :-)
[20:04 09/04/2004] <+Noname> Hello, and thank you for coming tonight. My name is Geoff, and my username is Noname. Tonight, I am here to talk to you about two of the very few non-fish vertebrates available, and possible for adding into fish tanks, The African clawed frog, and the African clawed frog.
[20:04 09/04/2004] <+Noname> First I will be discussing the natural habitat, and general information of the two animals.
[20:04 09/04/2004] <+Noname> The African clawed frog (Xenopus Laevis) is a member of the pipidae family of frogs. The majority of this family are fully aquatic. These frogs also have no tongue, eat with their hands, and, well have claws, unusual for frogs.
[20:05 09/04/2004] <+Noname> There are also pipidae species native to South America. Please check out this site, if you understand Germen, as it is probably THE best site out there when it comes to aquatic frogs.
[20:05 09/04/2004] <+Noname> http://www.pipidae.de/
[20:05 09/04/2004] <+Noname> The African clawed frog is native sub-Saharan Africa, and can be found in virtually all forms of water large enough to sustain them from marshes to lakes. In the wild they can reach sizes of over 6 inches.
[20:06 09/04/2004] <+Noname> These frogs are naturally varied shades of dark greens and browns, have fairly small eyes, which are slightly elevated above the head. They also have what seem like "Stitches" throughout their outer skin.
[20:06 09/04/2004] <+Noname> These are in fact sensory organs, which they can use to sense varying things in the water. These frogs have no ears, fair eyesight, and rely on their sense of smell and touch.
[20:06 09/04/2004] <+Noname> These frogs are communal, which means, that they communicate with one another for various reasons. While most communal when breeding, they do have awareness of others of their own kind at least in captivity.
[20:07 09/04/2004] <+Noname> Please check out these sites for great information about aquatic frogs, and the places where I got most of my information. One is the site of Martin Truckenbrodt, and is the English version of the Germen site I listed earlier.
[20:07 09/04/2004] <+Noname> www.pipidae.net
[20:07 09/04/2004] <+Noname> The other is a very well set up site I found linked to on the forums of pipidae.net, please check that out as well.
[20:07 09/04/2004] <+Noname> http://aquaticfrogs.tripod.com/
[20:07 09/04/2004] <+Noname> People began keeping African clawed frogs in the 1950's somewhat for pets, but mainly for medical research, which they are still used for today.
[20:08 09/04/2004] <+Noname> African clawed frogs have been tested on for just about everything, and even glowed before glow fish were even a gleam in their creators eyes, although this variety was never released on a commercial market.
[20:08 09/04/2004] <+Noname> African clawed frogs have even ventured into space, a feat that very few of earths animals have accomplished. In captivity, African clawed frogs come in an almost infinite amount of shades of green, brown, and albino colours.
[20:08 09/04/2004] <+Noname> The Albino, even some of the pigmented animals, tends to grow to slightly smaller sizes in captivity. African clawed frogs had a boom in popularity with the creation of the "Grow a Frog" kits, and, around this time, they were very common in the pet trade.
[20:09 09/04/2004] <+Noname> Popularity has decreased in recent years, and the frog, especially the pigmented variety, is less common than it has been. One other reason you may not be able to find this frog is that it is illegal in quite a few states.
[20:09 09/04/2004] <+Noname> This is due to the fact that this frog is very invasive, and can out eat many native animals, endangering the words already struggling frog species.
[20:09 09/04/2004] <+Noname> Also, due to the popularity of the community fish tank, another frog has become much more common in pet stores.
[20:10 09/04/2004] <+Noname> Shortly after the African clawed frog began being kept as pets, Asian countries, mainly India began breeding another species of frog, one that would fit much better into the friendly community tank.
[20:10 09/04/2004] <+Noname> The African dwarf clawed frog, or just African dwarf frog (Hymenochirus boettgeri)
[20:10 09/04/2004] <+Noname> A much smaller species, still in the pipidae family, this frog rarely reaches a size of 2 inches.
[20:10 09/04/2004] <+Noname> A much more delicate species, this frog is brown, much more thin looking, and is not available in albino colour. This frog also lacks the sensory organs of the African clawed frog, and is said to have worse eyesight and senses in general.
[20:11 09/04/2004] <+Noname> Here is the grow a frog website, a website showing the skeleton of the African clawed frog, and two maps of Africa, one showing the Sahara Dessert, (which AFCs live below of) and one showing the Congo region. (ADF range)
[20:11 09/04/2004] <+Noname> http://www.growafrog.com/
[20:11 09/04/2004] <+Noname> http://www.digimorph.org/specimens/Xenopus_laevis/ - Skeleton
[20:11 09/04/2004] <+Noname> http://go.hrw.com/atlas/norm_map/congo.gif - rough idea of Congo
[20:12 09/04/2004] <+Noname> http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/tsis/hg_d_tsis_d1map.jpg - upper African map
[20:12 09/04/2004] <+Noname> Now I am going to go into captive care, again starting with the African clawed frog.
[20:12 09/04/2004] <+Noname> The African clawed frog is one of the hardiest aquatic pets in the world, and I would suggest it over any kind of fish to the beginner.
[20:13 09/04/2004] <+Noname> This animals requires minimal cycling, can accept any pH value from 6.5 to 8, and can survive in relatively cool water. (65-75 degrees f)
[20:13 09/04/2004] <+Noname> Aquarium size for this animal should be at least 7 gallons per animal, although I would say about a square foot would be a better way to measure the amount of space needed.
[20:13 09/04/2004] <+Noname> Many sites and books will recommend bigger and smaller minimum tank sizes, although I believe, bigger is always better.
[20:14 09/04/2004] <+Noname> As I mentioned earlier, this animal is communal, so, more than one frog would be great, a pair would be even better, although male on male combat (somewhat common in dwarf frogs) is minimal if existent at all.
[20:14 09/04/2004] <+Noname> Despite this, you can house frogs singly is so desired.
[20:14 09/04/2004] <+Noname> Now I am going to touch on something a little sensitive, tank mates. The AFC is a herp, and as anyone who frequents online herp websites would know, species mixing is a huge issue.
[20:14 09/04/2004] <+Noname> This animal however is more like a fish than a frog in many respects to keeping, so I am going to treat this section like I would a fish, rather than a herp.
[20:15 09/04/2004] <+Noname> The AFC can be housed with any other fish or aquatic frog species that it cannot eat, and cannot eat them, and that can handle the same kind of habitat.
[20:15 09/04/2004] <+Noname> Good tank mates that match the country of the frog would be African knife fish, African butterfly fish, Congo tetras, and large killifish. Avoid tank mates with spines as, this can kill the frog.
[20:15 09/04/2004] <+Noname> A lid is a good idea if the water level is fairly high. Lighting is not very important, but should be there. Plants and hiding places will make the frog feel less stressed, as if you would ever be able to tell, the frogs are one of the most dense looking creatures in the world.
[20:16 09/04/2004] <+Noname> Filtration is an interesting issue. As I said, they have sensory organs along their body, and some say they react negatively to water movement. Some say the animal enjoys water
[20:16 09/04/2004] <+Noname> movement, and if fish want to be housed with the animal, it is necessary to filter the water, and cycle it properly.
[20:17 09/04/2004] <+Noname> Great foods are earthworms, blood/wax/tubifex worms, certain pellet foods, certain formulated frog foods, frozen feeder fish, frozen beef heart, and even home grown feeder fish are great. A word of warning, they can sometimes go through fasting periods.
[20:17 09/04/2004] <+Noname> Their behaviour in captivity is basically just swimming, resting, eating, breeding, and looking dumb. But somehow, it can all be very entertaining, especially with such quirks such as shoving as much food as possibly into their mouths, with their front legs.
[20:18 09/04/2004] <+Noname> Breeding these animals is quite easy, and can be induced by a water change, or a move into a bigger space. Eggs can be gathered and placed into a small tank, possibly with a sponge filter or air stone.
[20:18 09/04/2004] <+Noname> Not all eggs will be fertilized, but some most likely will have been. Tadpoles hatch within a few days, but become free swimming after about 3-6 days.
[20:19 09/04/2004] <+Noname> At this point they need to be fed virtually microscopic live, animal foods, such as infusoria and daphnia, even daphnia may be two small at first.
[20:19 09/04/2004] <+Noname> If you keep feeding slightly larger food at a constant supply, and change the water about once a day, you will find yourself with up to hundreds of froglets of varying sizes, which will have to be separated to avoid cannibalism.
[20:20 09/04/2004] <+Noname> Not as hardy as the African Clawed frog, the dwarf frog presents a very different captive care experience. The ADF can be housed in as little as 1 gallon of water, depending on surface area, although 5 gallon is a good minimum size tank.
[20:20 09/04/2004] <+Noname> Live plants are almost a must for this animal, especially floating plants. They seem to enjoy resting on floating plants, and even seem t o prefer live over plastic. Besides a non-rough substrate, decent water, and plants, ADFs are not really all that picky when it comes to captive habitat.
[20:20 09/04/2004] <+Noname> Access to the air is also a must, so either leave a portion of your lid open, or keep the water level know enough, that active specimens can not jump out.
[20:21 09/04/2004] <+Noname> The "perfect" biotopic fish to be kept with these frogs are African killifish, such as the steel blue killifish, as they share the same general habitat in the wild if they still are alive in the wild. Any other peaceful fish that wouldn't be able to eat or hurt them in any way
[20:21 09/04/2004] <+Noname> Mid and top dwellers are probably better than other bottoms dwellers. Feeding can be quite hard with younger, and older ADFs.
[20:22 09/04/2004] <+Noname> Frozen and live foods are really the best kinds of foods for these animals. The food pieces
[20:22 09/04/2004] <+Noname> must be small enough for the frogs to eat, and you may have to hand feed the frogs if they are old, young, or if there are fish in the aquarium.
[20:22 09/04/2004] <+Noname> Behaviour for these frogs is basically the same as the ACFs, only, less so. They are much slower, and not as energetic. They also enjoy floating on the surface with their legs out.
[20:23 09/04/2004] <+Noname> Breeding the ADF is harder than the ACF, but can be done with an increase in water heat and a fluctuation of water height. For those who wish to go through the almost insane prospect of raising nearly microscopic predatory tadpoles, please check out the following sites.
[20:23 09/04/2004] <+Noname> http://mike-edwardes.members.beeb.net/Amphibiary/Hymenochirus.html
[20:23 09/04/2004] <+Noname> http://www.pipidae.net/david/Breeding1.htm
[20:24 09/04/2004] <+Noname> This ended up being a lot shorter than I thought, ^_^. If you have any questions, especially about the large amount of things I didn't cover, I will do everything in my power to answer them. Thank you for coming.
[20:24 09/04/2004] <+Noname> ^_^
[20:24 09/04/2004] <@craig> Thank you Geoff.
[20:25 09/04/2004] <@craig> If anyone has any questions, please type: /query Craig I have a question
[20:26 09/04/2004] <@craig> Anyone?
[20:26 09/04/2004] <@Jessica> we're in awe?
[20:26 09/04/2004] <+Noname> Noname, you mentioned they are illegal in some states, which ones?
[20:26 09/04/2004] <+Noname> ecellent question Noname
[20:27 09/04/2004] <@craig> Why don't I just open the floor for general discussion?
[20:28 09/04/2004] <@Jessica> geoff.. you gonna answer it?
[20:28 09/04/2004] <+Noname> Arizona, California, Flordia, Kentucky, Louisiana, New Jersy , North Carolina , Oregon , Virginia (non albino variety only), Hawaii
[20:28 09/04/2004] <+Noname> thanks to aquaticfrogs.tripod for that one
[20:28 09/04/2004] <@Nigel> :D
[20:28 09/04/2004] <@Jessica> i've seen them here tho..
[20:29 09/04/2004] <+Noname> here is an article, WHY they are illegal http://www.columbia.edu/itc/cerc/danoff-burg/invasion_bio/inv_spp_summ/xenopus_laevis.htm
[20:29 09/04/2004] <@Jessica> d you know why not?
[20:29 09/04/2004] <@Jessica> seeing the pic, maybe not..
[20:29 09/04/2004] <+Noname> are you sure you saw the african clawed frog?
[20:30 09/04/2004] <@Jessica> ^^
[20:30 09/04/2004] <@Jessica> cute lil buggers
[20:30 09/04/2004] <@craig> Since there aren't any specific questions..
[20:30 09/04/2004] <+Noname> Dwarf frogs are perfectly legal in all states to my knowledge
[20:30 09/04/2004] <@craig> The floor is now open.
[20:31 09/04/2004] <zelda> Geoff, excellent job!
[20:31 09/04/2004] <@Nigel> good info geoff - many thanks :D
[20:31 09/04/2004] <@Jessica> geoff, thank you, btw :-D
[20:31 09/04/2004] <+Noname> did everyone enjoy my deperate grab for attension? ^_^
[20:31 09/04/2004] <@Nigel> it worked admirably :D
[20:31 09/04/2004] <+Noname> lol, thanks
[20:31 09/04/2004] <zelda> That was very informative :D
[20:31 09/04/2004] <@Jessica> were you setting up a paludarium for some of these guys or another of your frogs?
[20:31 09/04/2004] <@Nigel> good speed and info - well researched :D
[20:31 09/04/2004] <zelda> told ya you didn't have to worry bout tha length
[20:32 09/04/2004] <+Noname> paludariums are not the best for aquatic frogs, sort of a little waste
[20:32 09/04/2004] <+Noname> its firebelly toads Im setting up a plaudarium for, ^_^
[20:32 09/04/2004] <@Jessica> ahh, :-D
[20:32 09/04/2004] <+Noname> so, yah, another of my frogs
[20:33 09/04/2004] <+Noname> my old girls are going on 7 years...
[20:33 09/04/2004] <@Jessica> lol.. well a toad ;-)
[20:33 09/04/2004] <+Noname> toads are frogs....
[20:33 09/04/2004] <@Jessica> but not all frogs are toads?
[20:33 09/04/2004] <+Noname> right
[20:33 09/04/2004] <@Jessica> :-)
[20:33 09/04/2004] <@Nigel> what defines each?
[20:33 09/04/2004] <+Noname> *gives Jess cookie
[20:34 09/04/2004] <+Noname> Nigel, thats an excelent question, *runs*
[20:34 09/04/2004] <@Nigel> lol :D
[20:34 09/04/2004] <+Noname> Nigel http://allaboutfrogs.org/weird/general/frogtoad.html
[20:35 09/04/2004] <+Noname> lol, you sort of answered your own question, some frogs have the anti-freez thing,
[20:35 09/04/2004] <+Noname> I am not aware of any toads with the ability
[20:36 09/04/2004] <@Nigel> is it the same type as the cape crabs (in frogs)?
[20:36 09/04/2004] <+Noname> cape...crab?
[20:36 09/04/2004] <@Nigel> ghost crabs
[20:36 09/04/2004] <@Nigel> they use the blood for a/f
[20:37 09/04/2004] <@Nigel> iirc
[20:37 09/04/2004] <+Noname> ding http://allaboutfrogs.org/weird/strange/freeze.html
[20:37 09/04/2004] <+Noname> gonna quote it now, "Since there's so much glucose in the Wood Frog's system, their organs don't get damaged because the sugar in their blood acts as anti-freeze."
[20:38 09/04/2004] * @Nigel nods
[20:38 09/04/2004] <@Nigel> natural glycol seems to be a feature
[20:39 09/04/2004] <+Noname> I wasnt personally aware of a crab in cold weather, see, now I learned something, ^_^
[20:39 09/04/2004] <@Nigel> lol :D
[20:41 09/04/2004] <@Nigel> what period can frogs survive frozen?
[20:41 09/04/2004] * @craig query Jessica
[20:41 09/04/2004] <@craig> Oops..
[20:41 09/04/2004] <@Nigel> lol
[20:41 09/04/2004] <+Noname> websites say a couple of weeks, but I am sure its at least a month
[20:41 09/04/2004] <@Nigel> does that vary with the temp they endure?
[20:42 09/04/2004] <russ> there are some fishes that live under the Antartic glacers that have a type of antifreeze for blood, but I can't think of the species off-hand
[20:42 09/04/2004] <@Nigel> several jp
[20:42 09/04/2004] <@Nigel> beluga whales for one
[20:42 09/04/2004] <@Nigel> jp?
[20:42 09/04/2004] <@Nigel> russ :-S
[20:42 09/04/2004] <+Noname> Frogs here in Canada have to be tough, like our people, :D
[20:42 09/04/2004] <@Nigel> :D
[20:43 09/04/2004] <russ> :-D
[20:43 09/04/2004] <JP> So when's this shindig start?
[20:43 09/04/2004] <@craig> I've heard reports of seasonal freezing that can last for upto 3 months.
[20:43 09/04/2004] <JP> Just kidding, nice presentation Geoff. :)
[20:43 09/04/2004] <@Nigel> someof the arctix and antarctic fish and fauna are fascinating
[20:43 09/04/2004] <+Noname> The forgs generally either risk death with hibernation, or use the freezing method
[20:43 09/04/2004] <+Noname> Thanks JP
[20:44 09/04/2004] <+Noname> Im not sure anyone could kill a bullfrog though....
[20:44 09/04/2004] <+Noname> except freekin cats....
[20:44 09/04/2004] <@Nigel> do any of the south american frogs share the skill?
[20:45 09/04/2004] <+Noname> well, I dont know off hand, but since frogs are found everywhere except antartica, its quite likily that some of the frogs of SA have adapted to exploit the colder regions
[20:46 09/04/2004] <+Noname> Frogs are good at adaptl¬ and also act as sort of a warning, frogs die, something is wrong
[20:47 09/04/2004] <@Nigel> kinda applies to most wildlife :-(
[20:47 09/04/2004] <+Noname> yup, but frogs will die first,
[20:47 09/04/2004] <+Noname> or, mutate first
[20:47 09/04/2004] <@Nigel> shorta repro cycle?
[20:47 09/04/2004] <@craig> Certain species of frogs are used as indicators though, so what Geoff says has high merit.
[20:47 09/04/2004] <@Nigel> what impact does it have on a macro eco system?
[20:48 09/04/2004] <+Noname> Of course, some frogs are invasive, Bull Frogs, Cane Toads, African clawed frogs...
[20:48 09/04/2004] <+Noname> Poor Australia, they always get horrible infestations of things....
[20:48 09/04/2004] <@Nigel> what conditions are they susceptible to?
[20:49 09/04/2004] <@craig> Cane toads are the worst.. Bloody nasty creatures.
[20:49 09/04/2004] * @Nigel nods
[20:49 09/04/2004] <@Nigel> invading even here
[20:49 09/04/2004] <+Noname> Poison, Cold, Toxic Waste, Heat, Dry conditions, unusually wet conditions, hehe
[20:49 09/04/2004] <+Noname> Nigel, you have Cane toads in Britian?
[20:49 09/04/2004] <@Nigel> yes
[20:49 09/04/2004] <+Noname> woah
[20:49 09/04/2004] <+Noname> more learninf
[20:49 09/04/2004] <+Noname> *learning
[20:49 09/04/2004] <@Nigel> big problem in local rivers
[20:50 09/04/2004] <+Noname> yah, out of the few frogs who's eggs can live in rivers...they can...
[20:50 09/04/2004] <@Nigel> killing off local taods and frogs
[20:50 09/04/2004] <+Noname> Britian did get that 3 headed frog, that was awesome, well, in a way, in another way, its creepy
[20:50 09/04/2004] <@Nigel> have very few here, common, natterjack and one who's name escapes me
[20:51 09/04/2004] <+Noname> lol, The Bull frog is actually Native to where I live, ^_^
[20:51 09/04/2004] * @Nigel nods
[20:52 09/04/2004] <@Nigel> any other natives of canada?
[20:52 09/04/2004] <+Noname> tons
[20:53 09/04/2004] <+Noname> Wood Frog, Common Toad, Bull Frog, Leopard frog, Pickerl Frog, Grey tree frog,
[20:54 09/04/2004] <+Noname> I think there is about half a dozen or so more
[20:54 09/04/2004] <+Noname> we are sorta low in the Caudate department though, (salamanders)
[20:54 09/04/2004] * @Nigel nods
[20:55 09/04/2004] <@Nigel> folks - apologies for hogging geoff's time - i'm gonna shut up now and lurk a while :D
[20:55 09/04/2004] <+Noname> lol
[20:55 09/04/2004] <@Jessica> lol.. no porb lnigel
[20:55 09/04/2004] <@Jessica> ok lets try that again
[20:55 09/04/2004] <@Nigel> :D
[20:56 09/04/2004] <@Jessica> no prob, nigel
[20:56 09/04/2004] <@Nigel> wow - no typo's - i'll break that one and frame it ;-D
[20:56 09/04/2004] <@Jessica> :-P
[20:57 09/04/2004] <+Noname> uh oh, the cookie type energy is fading from my system
[20:57 09/04/2004] <+Noname> Im either going to leave or revert to rambling about japanese concerts in a short amount of time...
[20:57 09/04/2004] <@craig> You've done well Geoff, give yourself a pat on the back.
[20:58 09/04/2004] <+Noname> I really dont have the energy, ^_^
[20:58 09/04/2004] <@Jessica> lol, geoff, thanks again :D
[20:58 09/04/2004] <+Noname> I take it I shouldnt stay and ramble, ^_^, lol, I have to go anyway, bye
[20:58 09/04/2004] <russ> yes, thanks for a great presentation:-)