Chat transcripts

[6:03:41:] <craig> Welcome to this weeks Live! Fishchat!
[6:04:09:] <craig> Tonights speaker is Mark, the topic is Loach Geography 101.
[6:04:23:] <craig> Mark, when ever you are ready, the floor is yours.
[6:04:28:] Thanks Craig.
[6:04:37:] And the rest of you for coming along.
[6:04:55:] Tonight I'm basically going to run through a piece on loach geography...
[6:05:16:] Starting with general stuff, and then looking at the Mekong river specifically.
[6:05:44:] For those of you who stayed awake through my last thing... On Botia darios, this may seem a little familiar.
[6:06:05:] Okay then...
[6:06:54:] (Oops. I won't do that again.)
[6:07:12:] Loaches generally favour shallow waters in creeks, streams, and rivers. Because of this, they are able to live not only in tropical settings, but also in areas that are very arid. For instance, Jordan, Lebanon, Israel, and Syria are home to a number of Nemacheilus species. While it is an exaggeration to say that Morocco is typical of North Africa, the attractive Cobitis maroccana can be found there as well.
[6:07:47:] Similarly, streams and rivers in cooler, temperate zones may also be suitable for some loaches. Certain species exist in the streams of the UK, Scandinavia, the Baltics, Russia, and northern China. Overall, Eurasia might be considered the loach's true home, and Indochina the source of the widest diversity of species.
[6:08:25:] One way of exploring this range of living conditions (temperate to tropical), is to consider the Mekong River system. It offers a microcosm glimpse of the variations in loaches' adaptations to climate, water conditions, temperature and the rate of water flow.
[6:08:55:] Also, understanding the complexity of the human populations that exist along such a huge river may allow us to paint a better picture of the difficulties of conservation and the challenges that face loaches in the wild.
[6:09:23:] The Mekong is one of the world's great rivers, winding through seven ancient nations, and affecting the cultures, religions, and traditions of each. Over its 4800 kilometer course, it grows as it is fed by freshwater rivers and streams in six distinct geographical regions. One third of the freshwater streams in all of Thailand drain into the Mekong.
[6:09:54:] This river is so large that an estimated 15 thousand cubic meters of water pass by certain points every second. The variety of freshwater fish that are found in various sections of this river system is amazing. Over 750 species of fish are found there, but is the uniquely varied range of loach species that is our focus.
[6:10:25:] Here's a link to a map that might be useful...
[6:10:27:] http://gismapdesign.com/images/map/p-mekong.gif
[6:11:01:] Although there has been some controversy about where the Mekong actually originates, no one doubts that it begins in Tibet. Current thinking says that the river is originally fed by the Dzakar Chu, located high in the mountains, as opposed to Dzanak Chu, the traditionally held source. Either way, these headwaters both feed a river known in Tibetan as Dza Chu (essentially "Mekong Valley").
[6:11:28:] The Tibetan Plateau has an average elevation of around 4,600 meters (15,000 feet). Even at these high elevations, and in very low average temperatures, members of the Balitoridae family can be spotted.
[6:11:54:] Leaving Tibet, the Mekong enters Yunnan province in China, and flows southward through the province's entire length, eventually hitting (dictating) the point at which the Chinese border meets with Myanmar and Laos.
[6:12:17:] From here, it forms part of the Myanmar/Laos border, until the point at which Laos and Thailand meet at Ton Pheung. It flows into Laos from here, passing through the Lao capital of Vientiane, and then follows (dictates) the Lao/Thai border before entering the north of Cambodia.
[6:12:30:] Bear with me... This IS going somewhere...
[6:12:48:] The Mekong River bisects Cambodia, winding almost due south for hundreds of kilometers, passing through the Cambodian capital Phnom Penh, and finally forming its delta in the extreme south of Vietnam. Here it drains into the South China Sea.
[6:13:12:] The Mekong delta is a vast, very flat area that is densely populated. A large percentage of the people live, literally, on the river. The rich soil of this area is nourished by the immense river system, and is the site of much agriculture.
[6:13:29:] Because the Mekong passes through Laos, Thailand, Cambodia and Vietnam, and because each country relies on the river's riches in some way, the four nations have formed a cooperative body to manage the river and its resources.
[6:14:13:] The Mekong River Commission acts to protect and conserve the waterway and its fisheries. This resource management affects the lives of around 60 million people from over 100 ethnic groups, so it faces serious challenges.
[6:14:33:] Seen in terms of the total geographical area of the Mekong river system, Laos lays claim to 198 000 square kilometers, or just over 25% of the system. Thailand comes second with 193 900 km sq. Surprisingly, the vast deltas that cover much of southern Vietnam account for only 4.8% of the total area of the river system.
[6:14:57:] This part of the world is of course tropical for the most part. In Phnom Penh, for instance, the temperature rarely strays beyond 25-35 degrees, celsius (roughly 75-95F). That part of the Mekong basin sees up to three meters of rain per month during the summer/autumn monsoon season. It is during the monsoon that things get really interesting for the Mekong.
[6:15:21:] So much rain falls that the streams and rivers swell dangerously. In the dry season, part of the lower Mekong is fed by a Cambodian wide river/flood plain known as Tonle Sap.
[6:15:38:] In the wet season, the flow of water is so great in the Mekong that it actually reverses back into Tonle Sap, and floods an entire valley. The surface area can grow from around a quarter million hectares to 1.5 million hectares. Annual flooding causes the dispersal (and frequent deaths) of a huge human population.
[6:16:04:] This area is thought to be one of the richest aquicultural sites in the world, and has been designated a World Heritage Biotope by UNESCO. Fishbase.org lists 185 species of fish that appear in this area alone. Half to two thirds of the protein taken in by Cambodians is from fish harvested in Tonle Sap.
[6:16:35:] One final geographical aspect of the Mekong River that is still being examined is the phenomenon of "deep pools."
[6:16:51:] There are 58 known deep pools in the Cambodian section of the Mekong basin, and during the dry season, when water levels can drop by as much as 15 meters, these pools act as dense reservoirs of aquatic life, with cooler temperatures and lower light levels protecting fish from the scorching heat at the surface. Hopefully more information about deep pools will become available as research continues.
[6:17:16:] Loaches in the Mekong:
[6:17:31:] The vast majority of the Mekong is simply a large tropical river, but other parts of the Mekong are fed by mountain streams, with cooler water and a faster flow. Hillstream loaches abound in these upper feeding stretches of the system.
[6:17:51:] Some of the hillstream genera found in this area include: Acanthocobitis, Annamia, Balitora, Hemimyzon, Homaloptera, Nemacheilus, Paracobitis, Sewellia, more than 60 species of Schistura, and others.
[6:18:14:] <ChanServ> Notice: Milk issued OP
[6:18:19:] For most of us, many of these genus names are unfamiliar... Hopefully not for long. How many tanks do you have already?
[6:18:31:] Acanthopsoides, Acantopsis, Botia, Cobitis, Lepidocephalichthys, Pangio, and Serpenticobitis are all genera of loaches found in the Mekong as well. Like any river, physical differences in the banks and bottom occur, and dictate where different loaches will be found.
[6:18:51:] For instance, Kuhli loaches can be observed amongst leaf litter that collects along the river's edge, and in slow moving pools formed by such things as fallen trees. In other areas, the river passes over mounds of rounded boulders, creating areas of high water flow. This is the place to find Schisturas, some hillstream loaches, and other tropical fish.
[6:19:13:] The Horsefaced Loach (Acantopsis choirorhynchos) is native to the parts of the Mekong that stretch through Laos and Thailand, but it has not been reported in Cambodia or in the Mekong delta in Vietnam. This is an example of a loach found in one part of this massive system, but not in others.
[6:19:36:] The Tonle Sap boasts 4 species of Botia: B. beauforti, B. helodes, B. lecontei, and B. modesta - but the whole Mekong supplies homes to those and ten other species.
[6:19:53:] It is key when discussing a "river system" to take this fact into account. Tributaries found high in the mountains of Tibet and Yunnan will not be hospitable to Kuhli loaches - which are found at lower elevations of the Mekong - but they will harbour certain hillstream loaches which are more at home in fast-flowing, colder waters. With the genus Schistura, individual species can vary from stream to stream in the same, relatively small area.
[6:20:19:] Many books on aquarium fish, and indeed the traditional model of the aquarium business, will refer to a fish's origin as "Asia" or even "Southeast Asia." This is a disservice not only to the particular fish, but to the human cultures in the parts of the world where they originate.
[6:20:25:] <Milk> Notice: Milk is away: auto-away after 30 mins idle since 8:00:03 PM (21m 15s)
[6:20:33:] In the case of loaches, their collection and export to our Western aquarium hobby may supply entire villages with seasonal income, which in turn supports conservation efforts such as the Mekong River Commission.
[6:20:56:] The Mekong system mirrors some of the other great southeast Asian river systems: the Irrawaddy and Salween rivers in Myanmar, the Chao Praya river in Thailand, and the Yangtse and Song Hong rivers of China.
[6:21:10:] The dense human populations and often "hot" political situations in these areas make conservation efforts both difficult and critical. As we in the aquarium hobby take part in the exploitation of these river ecosystems, the least we can do is be aware of their unique and special characteristics.
[6:21:11:] <ChanServ> Notice: Milk issued DEOP
[6:21:31:] Perhaps of greater importance is the concept that, with some research, the aquarist can build an aquarium habitat for their loaches that closely resembles the areas where the fish were caught.
[6:21:49:] Doing this is certainly the first step to increasing the chances of reproduction in captivity, which is a major goal of the loach-keeping community for the simple fact that if we can learn how to breed loaches, we can immediately reduce the strain on their natural habitats.
[6:22:10:] In this way, one can see the importance of treating loaches (and other aquarium fish) as more than simple "pets." It is an ethical approach, and with luck and lots of shared observation, we can work towards insuring that loaches will continue to thrive in the wild and in our aquariums.
[6:22:27:] As a postscript, here is a rather impressive inventory of the loach species found in the Mekong river system:
[6:22:34:] (and it's a long list...)
[6:22:52:] Acanthocobitis zonalternans
[6:23:02:] No, that didn't work at all...
[6:23:35:] I'm not sure how to get this list to show up...
[6:23:58:] Rather than cut and paste each name...
[6:24:01:] Any help?
[6:24:12:] <craig> Paste it in small parts Mark.
[6:24:25:] Acanthocobitis zonalternans
[6:24:30:] Hmmm... No, that'
[6:24:37:] That's not doing it...
[6:24:58:] I can post it on LOL and then come back...?
[6:25:14:] <Jessica> and link to it, thats fine
[6:25:24:] Why don't I do that...
[6:26:43:] http://aquaweb.pair.com/forums/loach/index.cgi?read=80538
[6:26:46:] Sorry about that...
[6:26:54:] Technical computer stuff!
[6:27:57:] Anyway, that's it. Thanks to Craig, Jess, Nigel, et al.
[6:28:31:] <Nigel> mark - thanks to you - for the time, trouble and the info - a good talk :-)
[6:28:33:] <craig> Is it question time Mark?
[6:28:38:] Sure.
[6:28:54:] <craig> Folks, if you have a question, please type: /query craig I have a question
[6:29:07:] <craig> As is usual, they'll be taken in the order received.
[6:29:59:] <craig> While I have the chance, Mark, thanks for the last minute save. :-)
[6:30:15:] LOL is good for so many reasons!
[6:31:44:] <Jessica> do the botias in general seem to prefer a general area of the river? like khulis in the slow shallows, etc?
[6:32:19:] Well I think different species prefer different situations.
[6:32:33:] In general, Botias are not fans of fast flowing water...
[6:32:50:] But these are river fish, and conditions in the river fluctuate.
[6:32:55:] Even with Kuhlis...
[6:33:09:] You imagine them hiding in leaf litter at the shore line...
[6:33:23:] If the shoreline changes by 15 meters in a year, they'll have to adapt.
[6:33:42:] Generally speaking, though, I think you're right.
[6:33:51:] <craig> NetMax, please ask your question. :-)
[6:34:06:] <NetMax> based on what are usual aquarium conditions are, is there any generalities which could be
applied to improve conditions for the loaches we keep?
[6:34:18:] I think so...
[6:34:37:] For one, careful adjustment of pH, temperatures, etc...
[6:35:00:] But also, I think certain south Asian plants could be one way of helping...
[6:35:14:] Java ferns are found throughout the Mekong for example.
[6:35:32:] Also, and more than anything, frequent water changes help to simulate actual river conditions.
[6:36:17:] <craig> Mark, what about dither fish? Any specific types found in the regions our loaches are from?
[6:36:43:] Well, that's an excellent question, and will no doubt pad out my article...
[6:36:55:] I didn't include this information, but...
[6:37:17:] The base starting point for all of my research is, of course Fishbase.org...
[6:37:40:] And, happily, you can search for a complete listing of known fish for just about any given area.
[6:38:07:] The list of cyprinids in the Mekong is totally amazing!
[6:38:23:] Danios, white clouds, and other minnow type fish are all found there.
[6:39:00:] A tool like Fishbase offers us a new and unique insight for designing our tanks.
[6:40:32:] Too bad you can't search by "dither fish."
[6:40:58:] <Jessica> You're hedging ;-). i was curious if you'd found any who are inclined towards the faster waters?
[6:41:09:] Ha.
[6:41:16:] Well, hillstreams, Jess.
[6:41:25:] Of the Botia species...
[6:41:31:] <Jessica> no
[6:41:34:] <Jessica> dither fish ;-)
[6:41:43:] Ah...
[6:41:46:] <Jessica> ;-D
[6:41:48:] Go get white clouds!
[6:42:10:] They can handle the current and the lower temperatures, and they're quite durable fish.
[6:42:28:] Aside from that, I don't know - yet. Maybe next week.
[6:42:37:] ;-)
[6:42:59:] <craig> One more question, then I am going to open the floor..
[6:43:05:] <NetMax> Does the use of sand provide any medicinal or therapeutic aspects for the loaches which like to bury themselves in it?
[6:43:06:] <craig> NetMax. Go ahead. :-)
[6:44:12:] That's a question that is outside of my knowledge or experience...
[6:44:46:] <NetMax> ok thanks anyways Mark
[6:44:48:] But certainly, if the fish is used to this in the place it was wild-caught, it stands to reason that simulating these conditions would help.
[6:45:22:] <craig> Mark, once again, thanks for coming to the plate on such short notice.
[6:45:28:] <craig> With that, the floor is now open.
[6:45:30:] The pleasure was all mine!
[6:45:35:] <Jessica> mark was very interesting. thank you :-D
[6:45:48:] Cheers! :-D
[6:46:00:] <Obfishion> Thanks Mark, very informative
[6:46:01:] <NetMax> thanks Mark! very interesting to have proper habitat information
[6:46:13:] <MT-ED> Tidier start (he knows what I mean!)
[6:46:17:] A lot can be found out from some research.
[6:46:26:] Yes, I know what you mean, Mr. T.
[6:46:27:] Thanks.
[6:46:36:] <russ> Mark, that was an amazing presentation. I won't take 'Asain or South East Asia' for granted as a local for fish:-)
[6:46:37:] <MT-ED> U R welcome
[6:46:47:] Cheers, Russ!
[6:47:10:] I hate the term Indochina! This place is not India or China, but quite unique in its own right.
[6:47:27:] I would love to travel the length of the Mekong, too...
[6:47:28:] <JP> Thanks Mark. Even for a loach chat, it was pretty interesting... ;)
[6:47:36:] You're too kind.
[6:47:39:] Sometimes.
[6:47:42:] ;-)
[6:47:54:] <JP> I'm an :-0 at least .99% of the time.....
[6:48:06:] <Obfishion> Question: What takes up the bulk of a loaches diet in the wild? Snails?
[6:48:10:] The decimal is in the right place, anyway.
[6:48:16:] <JP> ;)
[6:48:17:] <craig> Just from a personal POV, I've found that many species of tetras make good dithers for loaches. :-)
[6:48:26:] <JP> Most people don't catch the decimal.
[6:48:37:] Diet: snails, plants, other small fish, invertibtrates that live in the leaf litter...
[6:48:49:] <russ> I wish my experience with the Mekong Delta was a more pleasent one than it was 37 years ago
[6:48:55:] Oooh, cool: snail!
[6:49:00:] <Obfishion> hehe
[6:49:06:] What was that, Russ?
[6:49:13:] Oh.
[6:49:13:] Nevermind!
[6:49:19:] <MT-ED> Re: the sand Q, I think that it's main benefit would be psychological if fish habitually bury themselves in the wild. It's possible that moving through sand might scrape off external parasites as well.
[6:49:32:] I agree.
[6:49:41:] <NetMax> Mark, ever hear of Terbangs leaf? I use this as leaf litter. I get it from Singapore, and where they get it I don't know.
[6:49:57:] It's supposed to be medicinal as well...
[6:50:02:] <Nigel> terbang is a region iirc?
[6:50:30:] I think it has natural antibiotics in it that leech into the water.
[6:50:31:] <MT-ED> My LFS has shipped some in. Very beneficial for the fish apparently. Some come shipped with the leaf in the bags.
[6:50:41:] <Nigel> like tea tree?
[6:50:45:] Similar.
[6:50:45:] <NetMax> Unsure, the leafs really get the water tannic coloured though
[6:51:14:] On Loaches On Line, some people recommend using dried oak leaves as litter.
[6:51:29:] <Nigel> they high in tannin too?
[6:51:36:] <MT-ED> Oh yeah
[6:51:43:] For certain fish, I think it is called for.
[6:51:59:] * Nigel assumes it alters the water ph?
[6:52:05:] <MT-ED> Apistogrammas like messing about in leaf litter
[6:52:06:] Tannin is what they're used to, though.
[6:52:29:] Rivers are not crystal clear, and that's all part of this challenge.
[6:52:48:] Nigel - likely lowers the pH, if nothing else.
[6:53:02:] <MT-ED> Fishbase says that Homaloptera orthogoniata have been collected in "blackwater conditions"
[6:53:10:] <Nigel> how does it affect microbes?
[6:53:14:] Blackwater.... :-(
[6:53:32:] <MT-ED> High in tannin. Looks like Coke
[6:53:47:] <Nigel> hi anti-biotic value?
[6:53:49:] I think leaf litter would encourage some microbial action, but again, it's a rich soup where these guys live.
[6:54:14:] Terbang leaves have antibiotics.
[6:54:46:] <NetMax> Returning to sand... I like to use it with loaches, but then they vanish into it, and I worry about their well-being (missing out on meals).
[6:54:49:] Of course, they're being sold for $2.00 a leaf here.
[6:54:50:] <craig> Something akin to tea tree oil?
[6:54:56:] <Nigel> are they marsh or river plants/trees?
[6:55:15:] <Nigel> craig - sounds very much like it to me#
[6:55:20:] <MT-ED> Leaf litter is the life blood at the bottom of the food chain. One reason that Hillstreams are so successful at higher altitudes is that they circumnavigate the lack of litter in the stream by feeding on algae.
[6:55:23:] I'm really not sure. I'm going to investigate though.
[6:55:28:] <NetMax> $2 a leaf?!? whew... I sell a bag of 20 for $2.98.
[6:55:29:] <Nigel> tho subtle differences will no doubt apply
[6:55:52:] * Mark orders ten bags from NetMax!
[6:56:01:] <MT-ED> Deal!
[6:56:20:] <Nigel> tannin - iirc is acidic - not sure why it would lower ph unless it's a biproduct of microbial action
[6:56:36:] Okay, gang... I'm going to have to go and eat and whatnot. Thanks so much for joining us tonight!
[6:56:46:] <Jessica> thanks again mark
[6:56:48:] Sorry about the hasty farewell.
[6:56:55:] <NetMax> thanks Mark!!
[6:56:56:] <Jessica> nigel, if its acidic, then it of itself will lower PH,
[6:56:56:] <Nigel> thanks again mark - good talk :-D
[6:56:56:] <russ> thanks Mark, take care
[6:57:04:] Night all!
[6:57:06:] <Nigel> lower?
[6:57:07:] :-P
[6:57:12:] <Nigel> how jess?
[6:57:15:] <MT-ED> Cool stuff! Enjoy your proper meal. Snacks are just snacks.
[6:57:20:] <Jessica> higher pH is alkaline.
[6:57:23:] <Jessica> lower is acidic
[6:57:26:] <Nigel> eep
[6:57:34:] <Nigel> good point :-D
[6:57:37:] <Jessica> :-D
[6:57:55:] <russ> Jess, not nesecerly, but thats for another project:-)
[6:58:10:] <Jessica> hehe
[6:58:21:] <Jessica> russ i'd love to hear it ;-)
[6:58:38:] <Nigel> is trebang salt or freshwater?
[6:58:42:] <NetMax> it's gonna get technical ;)
[6:59:02:] <Jessica> NetMax no problem there ;-D
[6:59:26:] <NetMax> who is worried about you, it's me I'm worried about !
[6:59:36:] <Nigel> LOL
[6:59:40:] <Jessica> LOL
[6:59:52:] <Jessica> shall we hire a translator? ;-D
[7:00:13:] <Nigel> hey i just borked acid over ph - a bigger fool comment would be appreciated :-D
[7:00:17:] <JP> I have fish-related thingers to get wrapped up...gotta be afk for awhile.
[7:00:43:] <Betsy> borked? Is that a technical term?
[7:00:50:] <Nigel> yep
[7:01:03:] <Nigel> a polite way of saying 'stuffed up'
[7:01:05:] <Nigel> :-D
[7:01:06:] <Jessica> it is when nigels around
[7:01:15:] <Nigel> hehehehehe
[7:01:20:] <Nigel> gee thanks jess ;-D
[7:01:31:] <Jessica> hehe ;-D
[7:01:52:] <Nigel> does anyone know if these are salt or freshwater?
[7:01:55:] <NetMax> will, in the most aquarium applicable sense, low pH is a measure of aciditiy, so if we are getting technical, it's going to be the molecules story
[7:02:12:] <NetMax> Terbang leaves look a lot like oak leaves
[7:02:18:] <Nigel> binding agent would apply but a fair point
[7:02:29:] <craig> In general terms tho, low pH=acidic, high pH=alkaline..
[7:02:39:] <Betsy> I like stories- is the molecule story a good one?
[7:02:52:] <NetMax> be afraid, very afraid
[7:03:02:] <Nigel> what, commonly are streams lined by oaks - acid or alck - do they show increased immunity?
[7:03:26:] <Nigel> immunity in stocks
[7:04:27:] <NetMax> in my humble experience the greatest immunity comes with fish from very alkaline conditions (Rift Lakes)
[7:04:40:] * Jessica nods
[7:04:44:] <Nigel> hi rock salts?
[7:04:49:] <Jessica> aggreed. those fish are like rocks
[7:05:04:] <Nigel> rift is warm and salty iirc?
[7:05:08:] <Jessica> not necessarily salts, but harndess
[7:05:15:] <Jessica> hardness, GH and KH
[7:05:17:] <Nigel> disolved salts
[7:05:23:] <Jessica> its not brackish
[7:05:33:] <Jessica> tho..
[7:05:36:] <NetMax> dissolved salts but not salt (sodium)
[7:05:45:] <Nigel> salts as in rocks salts - not common salts
[7:05:48:] <Jessica> i'd say brackish fish kept in brackish water are also extremely hardy
[7:06:09:] <Nigel> how do tey deal when intro'd to freshwater?
[7:06:12:] <Jessica> die
[7:06:14:] <Jessica> lol
[7:06:18:] <NetMax> yup, also very alkaline... 8+, ocean I think is 8.something
[7:06:20:] <Nigel> and do s/w fish fare any better in reverse?
[7:06:48:] <craig> Osmotic pressure I believe is the killer here no?
[7:07:03:] <Nigel> osmotic pressure?
[7:07:11:] <Nigel> in liver function?
[7:07:20:] <craig> In all the body parts..
[7:07:25:] * Nigel nods
[7:07:27:] <NetMax> internally, SW and FW fish have the same amount of salt, but SW are always oozing salt out and FW are always holding it in, so...
[7:07:39:] <Nigel> is distillation of salts osmotic in fish?
[7:07:40:] <NetMax> their systems are reversed
[7:08:13:] * Nigel knows very little abt fish so please humour daft questions :-D
[7:09:15:] <NetMax> comparatively speaking, we all know relatively little, and the more we learn, the greater this realization
[7:09:39:] <Betsy> Just the daft ones?
[7:09:52:] <Nigel> yeah - the rest are gold ;-D
[7:10:24:] <Betsy> Don't be so hard on yourself- a lot of other people were probably wondering, too.