jay

transcript

  • [6:10:24 PM:] <craig> Good evening everyone! Welcome to Live! Fishchat!
  • [6:11:09 PM:] <craig> Tonight we have a special presentation from Sully by proxy, Jessica will be presenting his talk for us.
  • [6:11:26 PM:] <craig> Jess, when ever you are ready.
  • [6:11:43 PM:] <Jessica> As Craig said, I'm simply giving Sully's presentation. :-)
  • [6:11:53 PM:] <Jessica> All 'I"s are not me ;-)
  • [6:11:59 PM:] <Jessica> Let's start off with the basics.
  • [6:12:05 PM:] <Jessica> First, I am not an ichthyologist, a marine biologist, a biochemist or any of the ists. I am a keeper of water that happens to watch and read about the fish that swim in my vats of H2O.
  • [6:12:28 PM:] <Jessica> As a result I am going to say, right up-front, that some of what I will mention tonight is based on observation. Anecdotal evidence to support whatever it is I am babbling about at the moment. Also, as a result of not being an ist of any kind I have to credit University of Florida, University of California-Davis, Ohio State University, Cornell, Dartmouth, University of North Carolina, Duke and a host of others that I have purloined material from.
  • [6:12:55 PM:] <Jessica> I have made every attempt possible to paraphrase and not plagiarize. So some of what you read may seem familiar (especially given the sources mentioned above, not to mention the multitude of sources they pulled from, coupled with your insatiable drive to learn about your fish on-line familiarity with some topics is inevitable)
  • [6:13:21 PM:] <Jessica> STRESS, Why talk about it? Because it is the cause of most health, disease and death issues in your tank. Pretty bold statement. But, in line given a rather generalized definition I am using when considering stress.
  • [6:13:38 PM:] <Jessica> The basic areas of stress that I will address are:
  • [6:13:51 PM:] <Jessica> *Environmental
  • [6:14:05 PM:] <Jessica> where we look at:
  • [6:14:07 PM:] <Jessica> a. Your Water-Stability is the key.
  • [6:14:07 PM:] <Jessica> b. Pollutants-fish waste and meds count.
  • [6:14:07 PM:] <Jessica> c. Stocking - fish do talk
  • [6:14:07 PM:] <Jessica> d. Tank Décor-It needs to do more than look pretty.
  • [6:14:27 PM:] <Jessica> Pretty simple. Yet it could take hours and hundreds of pages to discuss any one in depth. So, it will be a quick, cursory examination of each.
  • [6:14:37 PM:] <Jessica> First, Your Water
  • [6:14:45 PM:] <Jessica> For most of us it does not matter what Ph level is maintained, what Total Dissolved Solids are present or what degrees of kH or gH are present. For most of us, and most of our tanks all that is important is stability. Although I would not attempt to keep Rift Lake Cichlid in a ph of 7.2.
  • [6:15:20 PM:] <Jessica> What does that mean and how is it achieved? The first time you have placed water in your tank you and then added fish you have established your baseline. Trace elements needed for fish health are in place, the ph is adjusted to and then your fish begin to change it-with or without your understanding and consent. Water changes will cause significant change in stability if not practiced with the appropriate volume or frequency.
  • [6:15:39 PM:] <Jessica> And while you are keeping the essentials as they come out of your tap managed the build up of Dissolved Organic Compounds and Nitrate is addressed as well. Causing a significant, abrupt swing in the values on either side of the equation will result in stress to the fish. We have all heard the stories about the people that do nothing other than top off their tanks for 6-12 months, and never have a problem. Then they get energetic (or guilty) one day and do a 50% water change along with a very thorough and complete gravel vac and filter cleaning.
  • [6:15:51 PM:] <Jessica> 2 days later they find all their fish dead. Even fish can adapt to certain environments. Unfortunately the hobbyist became fleetingly aware of the time bomb they had created and accidentally detonated with the best of intent.
  • [6:16:07 PM:] <Jessica> Water is the dead horse that has been endlessly beaten. It is the first step that many keepers take when attempting to address health problems (thankfully). It is the primary underlying message provided on a board several of us frequent.
  • [6:16:34 PM:] <Jessica> Water needs to be stable and it needs to be kept clean. Allowing extended periods of neglect will result in disease and pathogen problems in your tank. Attempting to remedy problems in water that has been unattended to for too long will result in additional problems and possibly deaths simply because you cannot replicate the chemistry that has been created in that type of tank.
  • [6:16:51 PM:] <Jessica> Yet another excellent reason for frequent water changes
  • [6:17:00 PM:] <Jessica> Next up are pollutants.
  • [6:17:18 PM:] <Jessica> The obvious ammonia, nitrite and nitrate litany must be provided. The less obvious are the presence of pesticides and household cleaning agents that are accidentally introduced to your tank. You need to be aware of even trace amounts of chemicals utilized in your home that can and will be introduced through the air pump or simple air movement across the surface of your tank.
  • [6:17:50 PM:] <Jessica> Another source of fatal toxins are the meds. Many hobbyists have no ability, training or experience in recognition and treatment of disease. Unfortunately way too many of us learn at the school of hard knocks-gaining more expertise than we ever desired. While others of us learn the easier way-simply reading technical information.
  • [6:18:20 PM:] <Jessica> But, regardless of method way too often medications are introduced to the tank that are not appropriate treatment (I can think of one person I was recently reading about that added an antibiotic for what was obviously a parasite problem). Medications thrown haphazardly into the tank can cause problems. Either directly stressing fish-adding additional stress that reduces the ability to combat the real problem, or indirectly, like antibiotics, destroying useful necessary bacteria in the tank. Which then results in an increase in other toxins.
  • [6:18:58 PM:] <Jessica> Other water issues creating stress are bacterial and parasitic in nature. Improper quarantine of plants and livestock are one source of introduction of the particularly nasty varieties. Some of the bacteria and parasite problems are ubiquitous. Regardless of steps you take the problems will be in the tank. Proper cleaning and attention to feeding will be a great help in keeping these to levels that the fish can handle of their own accord.
  • [6:19:57 PM:] <Jessica> Stocking.
  • [6:20:04 PM:] <Jessica> Yes it is important. And it is a question of more than simply quantity of fish in relationship to tank size. Since the 1" per gallon rule has no merit in most instances and the 2" per gallon rule has about the same relevance they won't be discussed. It is more than gallons. In many instances fish are territorial.
  • [6:20:27 PM:] <Jessica> And that med "must" be met to reduce stress. It is more than a question of size of tank to allow the proper amount of swimming space. It is how the species are combined in tanks. It is not simply a question of aggressive or passive, male or female, South American, West African or Asian. It is the question of are the fish you have in the tank stocked in a manner that allows them the space required for day-to-day living (as well as sufficient to handle expanded territorial requirements if breeding is going to happen).
  • [6:20:44 PM:] <Jessica> Are the fish stocked in appropriate sex ratios-some are harem breeders, some "mate", some just spread their seed willy nilly with little concern for mating or fidelity (sounds like most men to the women here I know). And, it comes down to the ability to communicate with one another.
  • [6:21:09 PM:] <Jessica> Fish talk through a myriad of fashions. Complicated fin and body movements, emission of pheromones creating "scents" or odors, grinding of bone, hearing, motion, use of muscle and air bladder, and use of body colors to identify the basic tools. Unless the fish you keep are very placid and lightly stocked in relationship to space available it is worth thinking about this area. Why?
  • [6:21:47 PM:] <Jessica> Because stress is a very real and quantifiable state of being in all mammals and has been well documented to be virtually identical in fish. The fish, when stressed are confronted-just like you and me, with the fight or flight syndrome (this is a topic I can address very well since my education is in psychology-I am not an ist because it was a simple BA not a BS-although people that know me are confused by that since they think bs is what I am mostly full of). And, here I am going to lift copy directly from Ruth Francis Lloyd and a paper she authored as a member of the faculty at University of Florida:
  • [6:22:12 PM:] <Jessica> "The most widely accepted indicator of stress is the blood plasma cortisol level. The two major actions of cortisol in fish are regulation of hydromineral or osmotic balance and energy metabolism. Some consider the role of corticosteriods to be protecting the body from overdoing with its own defense mechanisms (Munck et al, 1984).
  • [6:22:35 PM:] <Jessica> Corticosteroid and catecholamine hormones are released in response to stressors in an attempt to adapt or avoid the cause of stress. Although both types of stress hormones are released into the bloodstream as part of the integrated stress response to acute and chronic stressors they do play different roles. Catecholamines or CA is the primary hormone released in the "Fight or Flight" response to acute stressors. Corticosteriods, predominately cortisol, are the primary hormone released in response to chronic stressors.
  • [6:22:55 PM:] <Jessica> The catecholamine hormones epinephrine (adrenalin) and norepinephrine (noradrenalin) are associated with more immediate reactions to stress, and are released when situations requiring a fight or flight response occur. The release of catecholamine hormones into the bloodstream causes increases in cardiac output, blood sugar, respiration, oxygen uptake, and blood flow to the gills. This prepares fish to better cope with threats to territory and safety. These responses are usually short in duration and are considered acute stresses.
  • [6:23:27 PM:] <Jessica> Corticosteriods, primarily cortisol, are associated with chronic stress as the animal attempts to adapt. Cortisol is released in response to all stressors, but its effects become greater the longer the stress reaction continues. In an aquarium, common factors that could lead to a chronic stress response would include such things as poor water quality, inappropriate temperatures, or toxins.
  • [6:23:55 PM:] <Jessica> When stress is continuous or chronic and cannot be avoided, as is more likely in the confined environment of an aquarium, the hormonal and behavioral responses cease to be a tool for adaptation and survival. At this point, these responses become maladaptive."
  • [6:24:37 PM:] <Jessica> Fish respond to chemicals and other stressors at intensity levels that are often far below those that can be detected by terrestrial animals (Wendelaar Bonga, 1997). Fish are more sensitive to stressors than many other vertebrates because their physiological homeostasis is intimately bound to and dependant upon the water in the surrounding environment. Disturbance of water and ion homeostasis during stress is due to the very intimate relationship between body fluids in the gills and the ambient water. The high bioavailability of chemicals in water is also a factor. Fish are exposed to pollutants through delicate respiratory surfaces of the gills. Marine fish also drink the saltwater.
  • [6:25:22 PM:] <Jessica> Fish respond to stress on three levels. This integrated stress response includes: primary, secondary and tertiary levels. The primary response is the release of the stress hormones, corticosteriods and catecholamines, into the bloodstream. The secondary response is the effects of these hormones at the cellular level including the mobilization and reallocation of energy, osmotic disturbance and increases in cardiac output, oxygen uptake and transfer. The tertiary response extends beyond the cellular level to the entire animal. It inhibits immune response, reproduction, growth and the ability to tolerate additional stressors (Pickering, 1987. Maule, et al, 1989. Barton. et al, 1986. Mesa, 1994).
  • [6:26:05 PM:] <Jessica> I think we are all smart enough to figure out what that means. (editors note-the papers and authors mentioned also make great reading-clearly the point of stress goes well beyond the casual observation by the hobbyist. The University of Florida is an excellent place to begin your search for knowledge) But to put it into the topic discussed-that of communication between fish-it very clearly indicates that if the signals being transmitted via color, scent, vibration, body movement....are not understood, or misinterpreted by other fish than conflict is not resolved (you may not see it but physiologically the fish are still responding a a very fundamental physiological level that impedes good health).
  • [6:26:57 PM:] <Jessica> It is that alone which mandates the selection of compatible fish. I will say that properly sexed quantities of specimens from the same species in sufficient space will assure that stress is minimized because the signals used to convey it from one fish to another are understood. My next cut at that thought process is fish with compatible temperaments, with compatible or at least non conflicting territory requirements (and territory will cover feeding habits for my point here) from the same bio-tope is your next best cut-you will be certain that misunderstanding of communication is at best minimized. Finally, I would suggest mixed community tanks of species from multiple continents are the last of the viable options. After that you will be hopelessly ensnared in a conflict situation that neither you nor your fish can sort out. Leading to disease and death for no apparent reason.
  • [6:27:53 PM:] <Jessica> I am getting long winded, and apologize. Trying to wrap this up as quickly as possible lets' skim thru tank décor. You need to provide an environment that provides the various species something that approximates comfort in as realistic a setting as possible. If the fish are nocturnal they need to be provided caves to hide in (not clear acrylic tubes so you can see them-but they feel sheltered). If they are schooling fish your tank must have wide open swimming areas. If they are the graceful, slow moving, languid swimmers you will often times find that planted environments are a must. As an over generalization plecos are wood raspers-provide wood.
  • [6:28:21 PM:] <Jessica> And, don't end the thought process with what they like during the day-fish do sleep, and they have sleeping preferences as well. As an example, my severums love to wedge themselves into heavily wooded areas. They prefer that above planted zones or rocky area. How do I know-I gave them the choice. They selected where they wanted to come to rest at night. So, the thought process of caves, plants and driftwood go well beyond daytime comfort and include fish behavior at nigh
  • [6:28:45 PM:] <Jessica> Light. It has its impact. Sudden changes in lighting cause stress-be it light to dark or dark to light. If you do not have multiple lights set on staggered timers to gently bring the tank to life each day and put it to sleep each night be judicious in how the fish are treated-especially after light is first turned on. Give them time to recover from the shock prior to feeding, cleaning or moving.
  • [6:29:26 PM:] <Jessica> My fish can see - but how far? Not very. That is why the use of backgrounds has been proven to have a soothing effect on fish. It encloses space for them-they do not need to worry about the vibration and oddly moving shadows in the great beyond-that space on our side of the tank.
  • [6:29:49 PM:] <Jessica> Fish can smell and taste. Consider that whenever placing anything into the tank. Or whenever utilizing scents near a fish tank.
  • [6:30:00 PM:] <Jessica> Fish sense vibration-a loud stereo and lots of foot traffic near a tank is bad.
  • [6:30:10 PM:] <Jessica> Diet: know what your fish needs-it is a lot more than the flakes in the tetramer container.
  • [6:30:37 PM:] <Jessica> Temperature-probably part of water but worth a mention. Try to keep it consistent-although the Amazon experiences far greater diurnal temp swings than seasonal. Keep it within the parameters of all the fish in the tank. If you have discus not a good idea to keep with fish that prefer 76-78F.
  • [6:30:52 PM:] <Jessica> I could really go on and on for hours more-but to wrap this up, if you see any of the following you know there is stress and something has to occur to get your tank right:
  • [6:31:08 PM:] <Jessica> -fish hanging out at surface of water.
  • [6:31:08 PM:] <Jessica> -rapid gill movement, panting by fish
  • [6:31:08 PM:] <Jessica> -sudden reduction in amount of food ingested-or stops feeding.
  • [6:31:08 PM:] <Jessica> -fish never comes out of hiding
  • [6:31:08 PM:] <Jessica> -fish have nicked fins, cuts and abrasions, missing scales, damaged lips, missing eye or other physical signs of conflict.
  • [6:31:20 PM:] <Jessica> AND THE BIGGEST GIVEAWAY
  • [6:31:26 PM:] <Jessica> FISH IS ACTUALY SICK. PARASITES OR BACTERIA.
  • [6:31:35 PM:] <Jessica> Thanks for your time hopefully it was helpful. By the way did you know that the slime coat is actually considered a layer of skin on a fish?
  • [6:31:57 PM:] <craig> Folks, open floor time..
  • [6:32:12 PM:] <Jessica> the end ;-)
  • [6:32:37 PM:] <Roxanne> well done Jess! Excellent talk.
  • [6:32:48 PM:] <Jessica> Roxanne, I never wrote that, ;-)
  • [6:33:00 PM:] <Josh> Good Typing :p
  • [6:33:01 PM:] <JP> She's a darn good copy/paster, though. ;-)
  • [6:33:08 PM:] <Jessica> ;-)
  • [6:33:08 PM:] <Josh> Yes she is
  • [6:33:56 PM:] <Jessica> There's several interesting ideas in there. the expansion of what to look for when looking for compatible fish, for example.
  • [6:34:41 PM:] <Jessica> As many of you know, my ideas and sully's on stocking take a bit of a turn.
  • [6:34:57 PM:] <Jessica> However, the key thing to how I stock my tanks is one that he mentioned as an important one.
  • [6:34:59 PM:] <Jessica> Stress.
  • [6:35:01 PM:] <Jessica> er
  • [6:35:04 PM:] <Jessica> Aggression
  • [6:35:07 PM:] <Jessica> sorry, lol
  • [6:35:20 PM:] <Josh> Would a plain color backround be better than a say a picture backround?
  • [6:35:27 PM:] <Jessica> Please, feel free to jump in.
  • [6:35:32 PM:] <April> makes me wish i could start all over...without giving back all my fish of course
  • [6:35:38 PM:] <Jessica> Josh, i don't think it matters as much
  • [6:35:46 PM:] <Josh> Ok.
  • [6:35:53 PM:] <Jessica> the key is blocking out things moving in the distance
  • [6:36:22 PM:] <Jessica> keeping the tank close to walls will also do similar effects. but i've noticed an increased comfort in some of my fish with backgrounds
  • [6:36:26 PM:] <Kimrin> yes but if your tank is against the wall you're only blocking the wall....not where the action is in the front
  • [6:36:27 PM:] <Jessica> not all, mind you, but some
  • [6:36:44 PM:] <Jessica> actually, with the fish i've seen that difference, they are cave dwellers
  • [6:37:06 PM:] <Jessica> the rocks of the the 'background' were tighter and made a closer home, so they could use that area as well.
  • [6:37:30 PM:] <Jessica> rock dwellers. tanganyikan cichlids in this case. I believe other cichlids are also in this category
  • [6:37:32 PM:] <Kimrin> interesting, sort of a fake cave to them?
  • [6:37:40 PM:] <Jessica> exactly, another wall
  • [6:37:56 PM:] <Jessica> (actually this is one of the few things sully and i touched on a couple days ago in chat)
  • [6:38:37 PM:] <Kimrin> so even though I don't like the picture type backgrounds my fish might?
  • [6:38:56 PM:] <Jessica> yes. or if you don't like the pictures. paint it black, or something similar
  • [6:39:08 PM:] <Jessica> a straight black background on a planted tank is very sharp
  • [6:39:15 PM:] <Josh> What about blue?
  • [6:39:18 PM:] <Kimrin> yes, I do like that
  • [6:39:21 PM:] <Jessica> even that.
  • [6:39:27 PM:] <Josh> hurray:)
  • [6:39:39 PM:] <Christine> The talk of suitable decor has gained my interest- I'd really like to find a site or resource that would depict the natural living quarters of certain fish so I could decorate accordingly
  • [6:39:58 PM:] <Jessica> Christine, that would be helpful.
  • [6:39:59 PM:] <russ> As far as backrounds or open ends/sides. etc., the thing to try and aleviate is things thats cause fish to lose their prospective inside the tank
  • [6:40:03 PM:] <Josh> Do angels like to hide in 'caves'?
  • [6:40:20 PM:] <Kimrin> go on Russ...
  • [6:40:21 PM:] <Christine> not mine Josh
  • [6:40:41 PM:] <Jessica> Josh, i've never seen much of a tendancy in young or old angels to do that.
  • [6:41:00 PM:] <Josh> Ok, making sure. Because my cories didn't use caves and neither did all my other fish.
  • [6:41:17 PM:] <Josh> So since i got a new angel would it be a good idead to put my cave decor back in?
  • [6:41:18 PM:] <Jessica> oh, that
  • [6:41:31 PM:] <russ> Aquariums placed near a wall(back side) is the standard, but a lot of folks try to make room dividers out of their tanks and that is not very good for their fishes
  • [6:41:36 PM:] <Jessica> I should mention something. fish think different things as we do of what a cave is.
  • [6:41:55 PM:] <Christine> Oh, yeah Russ, like the tanks in the wall between two rooms eh?
  • [6:42:04 PM:] <Josh> Do they think of it as a place to hide?
  • [6:42:07 PM:] <Christine> I've always wanted one of those, but now I reconsider
  • [6:42:24 PM:] <Jessica> Craig, actually was the one who got this in my head. (caves... am waiting for russ to finish)
  • [6:42:33 PM:] <Josh> Well i have to go in a bit. My new bird is still young, its being hand fed
  • [6:42:47 PM:] <Christine> awww:)
  • [6:42:51 PM:] <Jessica> ok, caves, most fish who like caves like tighter fits.
  • [6:42:52 PM:] <russ> Christine..not so mauc of those as the ones in which and end is against the wass as opossed by the the back of the tank against a wall
  • [6:43:01 PM:] <russ> 'much'
  • [6:43:16 PM:] <Christine> I see
  • [6:43:16 PM:] <Josh> I was also thinking...
  • [6:43:27 PM:] <Josh> I was going to build up gravel on one end of my tank..
  • [6:43:37 PM:] <Josh> And make a 'cave' that goes into the gravel..
  • [6:43:37 PM:] <russ> my keyboard is crazed again//wass=wall
  • [6:43:42 PM:] <Josh> At a down angel
  • [6:43:47 PM:] <Jessica> some are different, but every single fish I've had leaves those large open spacy caves alone, and chose, tighter spots
  • [6:43:52 PM:] <Christine> Jess, which explains why some cichlids enjoy the small hole dremmeled (sp?) into the clay pot
  • [6:44:04 PM:] <Jessica> yup
  • [6:44:07 PM:] <Josh> Would my idea be a good idea?
  • [6:44:37 PM:] <Jessica> i've never seen cories to be cave dwellers, they like well planted tanks.
  • [6:44:58 PM:] <April> here's a question/discussion having to do with schooling fish. as you might know i decided last week that i was overstocked and brought back some fish. i had 6 silver dollars in a 55, iwas advised that 6 could be sqweezed in if they were only species. so i brought back 2. now the 4 remaining don't school like they used to...stay more in the corners. do you think cutting their numbers may cause more stress in the long run?
  • [6:44:59 PM:] <Josh> Yea my coried love plants..
  • [6:45:07 PM:] <Jessica> i forget the other fish you mentioned, but it won't benefit the angels
  • [6:45:26 PM:] <Kimrin> I have a large peice of driftwoo bent at an angle and hollow all the way through. I was woried a lot of fish would hide in there but maybe it will be too spacious so they won't
  • [6:45:34 PM:] <Jessica> While a cool idea, if it doesn't benefit your fish, it will be harder to clean, and maybe something to use for another tank
  • [6:45:36 PM:] <April> and by sqweezed i mean squeezed :)
  • [6:45:51 PM:] <russ> without getting too far off the subject of angels and pots, I think the university of Florida, that Sully mentioned, is a very good place to google in. Univeristy of Georgia is another
  • [6:46:26 PM:] <Jessica> kim, you'll have to see.
  • [6:46:33 PM:] <Jessica> April, you already know my thoughts on the matter ;-)
  • [6:46:42 PM:] <Josh> I was planning on building up gravel on one side of my tank. I was going to make a cave with rock, the cave will be going INTO the gravel. Basically it will be going down at an angle. Wil this be good for any fish?
  • [6:46:42 PM:] <Jessica> I'd be interested in Russ'
  • [6:46:49 PM:] <Kimrin> uh oh,I didn't think about the cleaning :)
  • [6:47:07 PM:] <April> jess i can't remember..no one else commented. you thought 6 better than 4?
  • [6:47:16 PM:] <Jessica> yes.
  • [6:47:30 PM:] <April> okay thank you. i regret my decision to take them back,
  • [6:47:31 PM:] <Christine> Some fish would prbably enjoy your cave, Josh - and it is a neat idea - your angelfish and cories probably won't use it though
  • [6:47:48 PM:] <Jessica> Josh, depending on how tight it is, many cave-dwelling cichlids. Loaches. knifes, i imagine..
  • [6:47:59 PM:] <Christine> mmm lOACHES
  • [6:47:59 PM:] <Josh> I know the angel wont use it. But i am pplanning on ading maybe some kuhli's in, would they use it?
  • [6:48:16 PM:] <Jessica> khulis will use it if it is no more than twice their height
  • [6:48:30 PM:] <Josh> So make it really tight fitting?
  • [6:48:36 PM:] <Jessica> exactly :-)
  • [6:48:41 PM:] <Josh> Ok thank you.
  • [6:48:59 PM:] <Josh> I will start on that project at the end of this month when i clean all my tanks.
  • [6:48:59 PM:] <Jessica> think of it this way... the fish has to be able to defend the opening, or think they can. the less space to defend the better.
  • [6:49:01 PM:] <Christine> if you get more than one khuli, I'd make more caves too
  • [6:49:56 PM:] <Jessica> actually, christine, khulis will roost together. if you have a large group, say 6+, i'd have 2 options, or better yet, have some peat or leaf litter in there
  • [6:50:38 PM:] <russ> Jess, above you mentioned that you'd be interested in Russ'? I lost track of that one:-)
  • [6:50:49 PM:] <Kimrin> lol
  • [6:50:50 PM:] <Christine> Yeah... I should have known better. I know my schisturas are more territorial than most loaches
  • [6:51:22 PM:] <Jessica> russ, you remember april had 6 silver dollars in a 55gallon. I thought, if they were the only fish in the tank, having the group of 6 was better than a group of 4
  • [6:51:47 PM:] <Josh> Any suggestions For good bottom feeders that will get along with my cories in my 40 gallon?
  • [6:51:48 PM:] <Jessica> what do you have to say? I once asked if there was an aggression problem that led to the necessity of there being only 4 fish, rather than the 6, seeing as they are a schooling fish
  • [6:51:57 PM:] <russ> I think 6 will work in a 55 gal along with a few cories:-)
  • [6:52:00 PM:] <Christine> Josh - loaches!
  • [6:52:46 PM:] <Josh> what kind christine?
  • [6:52:51 PM:] <Josh> their are soo many i like.
  • [6:52:56 PM:] <Josh> but not many i dont think will fit.
  • [6:53:03 PM:] <Jessica> Christine, your schisturas are an excellent example of aggressive loaches. :D not all schistis are that way
  • [6:53:08 PM:] <russ> those fish can turn on a dime and although would appreciate the room, can have no problem in the 55 at 4-5inches:-)
  • [6:53:13 PM:] <April> (maybe i'll go get them back..i ordered the 125 today!!)
  • [6:53:23 PM:] <Jessica> Josh, remind me on that tank size
  • [6:53:28 PM:] <JP> Ugh.
  • [6:53:34 PM:] <JP> Shoot me.
  • [6:53:35 PM:] <Christine> Josh- botia striata
  • [6:53:42 PM:] * Jessica shoots JP
  • [6:53:45 PM:] <JP> Thanks.
  • [6:53:48 PM:] <Christine> or botia kubotai>?
  • [6:53:57 PM:] <Jessica> tank size, josh?
  • [6:53:59 PM:] <Jessica> 40G?
  • [6:54:08 PM:] <Josh> 40 gallon Jess..
  • [6:54:14 PM:] <Kimrin> or Dario or Sids? :)
  • [6:54:18 PM:] <Christine> 2 angels and 4 cories right?
  • [6:54:31 PM:] <Josh> No scientific names for me Christine. lol
  • [6:54:35 PM:] <Jessica> yeah, striata, sids, dario, histronica, rostrata,
  • [6:54:35 PM:] <Josh> yes that is right
  • [6:54:42 PM:] <Jessica> hehe...
  • [6:54:46 PM:] <Josh> Some common names?
  • [6:54:51 PM:] <Christine> so, zebra loach
  • [6:54:58 PM:] <Josh> i am very tired.. cant think strait now lol
  • [6:55:03 PM:] <Christine> um polka dot loach/burmese border loach
  • [6:55:06 PM:] <Jessica> josh. you will still need to look them on on loaches online.
  • [6:55:18 PM:] <Jessica> make sure you know what fish before you go
  • [6:55:38 PM:] <Christine> yeah, take a good look at the pictures - i've found a ton of loaches are mislabeled at the lfs
  • [6:55:57 PM:] <Christine> fell victim to mislabeling of loaches and rams already
  • [6:55:59 PM:] <Christine> Loaches online
  • [6:56:11 PM:] <Josh> loachesonline.com?
  • [6:56:19 PM:] <Christine> i think so?
  • [6:56:27 PM:] <Jessica> loaches.com
  • [6:56:33 PM:] <Christine> there ya go
  • [6:57:11 PM:] <Josh> brb
  • [6:57:12 PM:] <April> thanks for the chat. good night.
  • [6:57:18 PM:] <Jessica> good night, april
  • [6:57:21 PM:] <Josh> nite april
  • [6:57:40 PM:] <Jessica> Bengal loach, Queen, Scarf Botia - botia Dario
  • [6:57:51 PM:] <Jessica> Golden Zebra loach - botia histronia
  • [6:58:08 PM:] <Jessica> Zebra loach - b. striata
  • [6:58:33 PM:] <Jessica> Dwarf Botia, Golden chain loach - Sid The Monkey loach - sidthimunki
  • [6:58:52 PM:] <Kimrin> is it important for your driftwood to be very very smooth?
  • [6:58:56 PM:] <JP> He can go read, Jess. :-P
  • [6:59:11 PM:] <Jessica> Kim, nope.
  • [6:59:19 PM:] <Kimrin> good
  • [6:59:20 PM:] <Jessica> if you have a pleco, he'll have fun.
  • [6:59:25 PM:] <Jessica> I like taking the bark off, tho
  • [6:59:38 PM:] <Kimrin> I was worried he might get splinters
  • [7:00:12 PM:] <Kimrin> well it's not really splintery
  • [7:00:19 PM:] <Kimrin> just very craggy
  • [7:00:29 PM:] <Jessica> unless you're dealing with wood from home depot, i can't imagine splinters being a problem
  • [7:00:40 PM:] <Jessica> I love wood that is highly textured
  • [7:00:44 PM:] <Jessica> so do my fish, lol
  • [7:00:50 PM:] <Kimrin> :) nope, not from HD
  • [7:00:54 PM:] <Jessica> considering how many can fit inside :D
  • [7:02:09 PM:] <Kimrin> The Stand is takng forever
  • [7:02:20 PM:] <Jessica> You're making a stand?
  • [7:02:38 PM:] <russ> Is that the block stand or the metal stand?
  • [7:02:49 PM:] <Kimrin> Rin is building it , she's a cabinetmaker
  • [7:03:09 PM:] <russ> ah, sorry. I have an attention span of a slug this week.
  • [7:03:18 PM:] <Kimrin> but she never gets to build projects outside of work so she's going whole hog and loving it
  • [7:03:28 PM:] <Kimrin> lol Russ
  • [7:03:39 PM:] <Kimrin> it's a peice of furniture
  • [7:03:47 PM:] <russ> nice:-)
  • [7:04:16 PM:] <Kimrin> yes very custom, I'll have a "wet' drawer and everything
  • [7:04:46 PM:] <Kimrin> but it sure takes patience waiting :)
  • [7:04:48 PM:] <Josh> Would some yo-yo loaches do good in my 40 gallon?
  • [7:05:59 PM:] <russ> Josh, a couple of YoYo loaces would get fat and sassy in a 40 gal:-)
  • [7:06:46 PM:] <Josh> I had one befor. I gave it back to my LFS due to i was moving.
  • [7:07:06 PM:] <Josh> They are very hard to find around here. And are about 11$ last time i saw one.
  • [7:07:12 PM:] <russ> what others do you have planned for that tank?
  • [7:07:19 PM:] <Roxanne> Well, its 3am here in rainy scotland and I am so tired I 'need' to go to bed! Thanks for the great talk Jess although you never wrote it, it was well typed ;) lol! I'll speak to you all tomorrow! Night everyone
  • [7:07:33 PM:] <Jessica> lol thanks
  • [7:07:37 PM:] <russ> take care Roxanne:-)
  • [7:07:38 PM:] <JP> Take care, Roxanne.
  • [7:07:41 PM:] <megan> goodnight roxanne :)
  • [7:07:43 PM:] <Jessica> have a good one
  • [7:07:47 PM:] <Kimrin> nite Roxanne
  • [7:08:33 PM:] <Roxanne> Thanks guys, have a good night! And JP no bad behaviour or I'll get Jess to send you to your corner lol!
  • [7:08:41 PM:] <JP> !!!
  • [7:08:41 PM:] <Roxanne> ;)
  • [7:08:49 PM:] <JP> Tell that to Craig. ;-)
  • [7:08:55 PM:] <russ> he's running out of corners;-)
  • [7:08:58 PM:] <JP> I'm the :-0 around here.
  • [7:09:02 PM:] <Roxanne> lol
  • [7:09:08 PM:] <Roxanne> Sure ;)
  • [7:09:13 PM:] <JP> :-D
  • [7:09:19 PM:] <Roxanne> night everyone, take care X
  • [7:09:48 PM:] <Christine> Jess, do horseface loahes normaly bury themselves up to their neck in gravel?
  • [7:09:58 PM:] <Josh> were u talking to me russ?
  • [7:10:14 PM:] <Jessica> usually entirely so. I advise having some sand, though. they like it better, and will spend more time on the surface
  • [7:10:28 PM:] <Christine> ohhh goood. LOL
  • [7:10:47 PM:] <russ> 2-3 mm grain is ok if you have it:-)
  • [7:11:03 PM:] <Josh> russ were u talking to me up ther?
  • [7:11:11 PM:] <Christine> I saw one at the LFS... well, I only saw the head of one and I panicked and couldn't look very long - I thought it was either burried and dead or decapitated! It really grossed me out for a minute!
  • [7:11:22 PM:] <Kimrin> and just where do you go that has sand labeled by it's miliimeters?
  • [7:11:41 PM:] <russ> Josh, yes, just wondering what other fish you are keeping with the YoYos
  • [7:11:45 PM:] <Kimrin> I'm frustrated trying to pick sand :)
  • [7:11:57 PM:] <Josh> if i get them..
  • [7:12:00 PM:] <Christine> I used play sand in my 10g puffer tankk - very nice
  • [7:12:02 PM:] <russ> lets identify sand
  • [7:12:07 PM:] <Jessica> kim, I just get sand, if its sand its under what russ said
  • [7:12:10 PM:] <russ> more...
  • [7:12:11 PM:] <Josh> i will have 2 angels and5 corys.
  • [7:12:34 PM:] <Josh> amd 12 harlequins. if i got the yo-yos would they be ok?
  • [7:12:43 PM:] <Josh> erm 10 rahter..
  • [7:13:01 PM:] <russ> when someone mentions sand, I relate that to playgound-type sand. When referring to gravel, I realate that to anything larger than 'sand'
  • [7:13:03 PM:] <Kimrin> ok, I think I'll go with play sand. Less silica than the masonry sand I read
  • [7:13:33 PM:] <Jessica> silica isn't a problem for fish
  • [7:13:37 PM:] <Kimrin> how big is sand Russ?
  • [7:13:41 PM:] <Josh> is that ok russ?
  • [7:14:12 PM:] <russ> Kim, the pool filter or blasting sand is actually small gravel bits about 2-3mm grain size. It's almost totally inert
  • [7:14:34 PM:] <Kimrin> 2 angels, 5 cories, 10 harlequins and how many yo-yo's Josh?
  • [7:15:49 PM:] <Kimrin> hmmm, is it soft and comfy?
  • [7:16:02 PM:] <russ> Kim, I think I can explain its size by indicating how small it is compared to standard 'gravel' That would be less than 2mm in size:-)
  • [7:16:29 PM:] <russ> yes, its comfy, but not as soft as playgound-type sand
    [7:16:55 PM:] <Christine> IMO 3 yoyos would be fine? As long as you keep up with regular water changes... your tnak is planted right?
  • [7:17:30 PM:] <Kimrin> oh,ok then, it is sand then, Christine do you worry about the play sand becoming too compacted because it's finer?
  • [7:17:40 PM:] <Josh> yes my tank is planted.
  • [7:17:41 PM:] <Kimrin> or Jess?
  • [7:17:49 PM:] <Christine> I stir it up a bit with gravel vacs - not too much stirring though
  • [7:17:52 PM:] <Josh> it has about34 plants
  • [7:17:57 PM:] <Christine> Don't wanna ruin my HOB filter
  • [7:17:58 PM:] <Jessica> nope
  • [7:18:17 PM:] <russ> Ooops! Sorry Josh, almost lost your thread...In a 40 gal, they should be ok, but'could' be much better by retracing tonight's presentation on fish communities;-)
  • [7:18:23 PM:] <Christine> do you have bottom dwellers Kimrin?
  • [7:18:29 PM:] <Jessica> I have a sand finer than playsand in the 50G, literally it takes less than a week for anything under to become nasty
  • [7:18:49 PM:] <Jessica> but its planted, and i have not had any problems, and hte fish absolutely love it
  • [7:18:51 PM:] <Josh> the stocking?
  • [7:18:51 PM:] <Kimrin> I will have cories and plecos, not sure about loaches
  • [7:18:59 PM:] <Josh> Yes i know.
  • [7:19:01 PM:] <Christine> a couple loaches or cories will keep it aerated for ya
  • [7:19:01 PM:] <Josh> :)
  • [7:19:13 PM:] <russ> Jess, do your plants eat the nasties?
  • [7:20:00 PM:] <Jessica> they get aeration going, keep it from total compaction. and its the only sand i'd have any worries about
  • [7:20:05 PM:] <Christine> your cories will move the sand around enough
  • [7:20:44 PM:] <Jessica> add some MTS ;-)
  • [7:20:45 PM:] <Kimrin> I think I';ll get the play sand then, it's easy to find.
  • [7:20:57 PM:] <Kimrin> MTS?
  • [7:21:08 PM:] <Josh> Multiple Tank Styndrome
  • [7:21:14 PM:] <Jessica> malasian trumpet shell snails
  • [7:21:19 PM:] <Jessica> however it spelled
  • [7:21:20 PM:] <Josh> or that one lol
  • [7:21:21 PM:] <Christine> lol
  • [7:21:25 PM:] <Jessica> there's several ;-)
  • [7:21:29 PM:] <Kimrin> OH! lol, i thought you were talking about a fish
  • [7:21:29 PM:] <Jessica> meaning is in context
  • [7:22:09 PM:] <Christine> I think I have a major MTS syndrom going on here.... less than 8 months of successful fish keeping and I already have 6 tanks - do you think I'm moving too fast?
  • [7:22:19 PM:] <Kimrin> I'm afraid of snails getting out of control , how do shrimp and snails get a ong btw
  • [7:22:27 PM:] <Kimrin> get along I mean
  • [7:22:31 PM:] <Josh> I know this has been asked many times befor, but Sand seems to be the best for looks and for the fish, how easy is it to transfer?
  • [7:22:33 PM:] <Jessica> no problem there, though some shrimp eat snail eggs
  • [7:22:40 PM:] <Jessica> transfer?
  • [7:22:46 PM:] <russ> Christine,, no, not at all. You are lagging. Should have one for each month:-)
  • [7:22:52 PM:] <Josh> i mean, go from gravel to sand.
  • [7:23:17 PM:] <Josh> Should i leave a 1/2 inch of gravel on the botto and top of with sand?
  • [7:23:20 PM:] <Christine> are you sure? I'm starting to feel overpowered
  • [7:23:40 PM:] <Jessica> gravel will come to the top., i'd take out all of it
  • [7:23:44 PM:] <Kimrin> lol Christine, we started at the same time and I only have 2 little ones and a big one on the way, I guess I'm just too conservative to get MTS
  • [7:23:52 PM:] <russ> Josh, gravity will cause the smaller sand grains to sink to the bottom under the larger gravel
  • [7:23:59 PM:] <Jessica> i'm down to 5 tanks, will be 4 after the eartheater passes.
  • [7:24:14 PM:] <Christine> *sigh*
  • [7:24:18 PM:] <Josh> ok, then how do i clean it?
  • [7:24:21 PM:] <russ> I have to type faster:-/
  • [7:24:37 PM:] <Christine> well my hubby wanted convicts so bad that I had to buy one more tank
  • [7:24:38 PM:] <Kimrin> uh oh, I was planing to put the sand on top of fourite, will it sink down?
  • [7:24:52 PM:] <Kimrin> san on top of flourite, sheesh!
  • [7:24:56 PM:] <Christine> so thats 2g, 5g, 10g, 20g, 37g, and a 44g
  • [7:24:57 PM:] <russ> I think so
  • [7:25:14 PM:] <Jessica> kim, mix sand in with the flourite, then put the layer of sand on top.
  • [7:25:22 PM:] <Kimrin> I have to type faster and better :)
  • [7:25:24 PM:] <Jessica> there will be less clouding and you won't have that problem
  • [7:25:27 PM:] <Jessica> josh,
  • [7:25:27 PM:] <Josh> How do i clean sand? I have not the slighest clue
  • [7:25:36 PM:] <Christine> rinse, rinse and rinse
  • [7:25:39 PM:] <Christine> and maybe back
  • [7:25:42 PM:] <Kimrin> thank you !
  • [7:25:42 PM:] <Christine> *bake
  • [7:25:46 PM:] <Josh> bake?
  • [7:25:46 PM:] <Jessica> 1. have lots of plants, heavy root feeders, or
  • [7:25:51 PM:] <Christine> i did
  • [7:25:56 PM:] <Jessica> i have not baked any of my sand
  • [7:26:06 PM:] <Christine> but my sand was gathered from an outside playbox
  • [7:26:28 PM:] <Christine> baked at 350 degrees for 20 mins after about a half hour of rinsing
  • [7:26:49 PM:] <Josh> What do you mean by rinse? Put in a bucket of some sort and fill with water, dump water out ect?
  • [7:26:53 PM:] <Christine> still a huge cloud that took overnight to settle and another 3 days for the film to clear out
  • [7:27:06 PM:] <russ> Josh...yes
  • [7:27:16 PM:] <Christine> the best method prescribed by Jess is the bucket and garden hose method
  • [7:27:24 PM:] <Christine> hose on high power
  • [7:27:30 PM:] <Christine> bucket about a third full
  • [7:27:39 PM:] <Christine> its all on the message board if you search
  • [7:27:50 PM:] <Kimrin> what if you just keep running the water in and let it flow over?
  • [7:27:59 PM:] <Josh> yea^
  • [7:28:00 PM:] <Christine> you might lose sand?
  • [7:28:07 PM:] <Josh> oh lol
  • [7:28:09 PM:] <Christine> its so fine, it might spill over
  • [7:28:27 PM:] <Kimrin> ok, go on, I didn't mean to interrrupt
  • [7:28:48 PM:] <Josh> This sounds confusing lol
  • [7:29:09 PM:] <russ> I'm getting dizzy again
  • [7:29:09 PM:] <Kimrin> hi Adam!
  • [7:29:14 PM:] <Christine> brb
  • [7:29:14 PM:] <Milk> kimrin!!
  • [7:29:16 PM:] <Milk> hehe
  • [7:29:21 PM:] <russ> Hi Adam:-)
  • [7:29:34 PM:] <Kimrin> :)
  • [7:29:38 PM:] <Josh> How long should i rinse* the gravel for?
  • [7:30:00 PM:] <Jessica> until when you remove the hose, the water is clear in 10-20 seconds
  • [7:30:24 PM:] <Josh> So when its clear its safe to add to my tank?
  • [7:30:47 PM:] <Jessica> clear means, no dirt, no cloudiness :D
  • [7:30:59 PM:] <Milk> what kind of gravel?
  • [7:31:04 PM:] <Josh> Sand

 

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