Chat transcripts

[20:05 03/09/2004] <@Jessica> welcome folks to tonight's fishchat
[20:05 03/09/2004] <@Jessica> Craig will be talking about the rest of his tanks and fishkeeping experience.
[20:06 03/09/2004] <@Jessica> Please hold the tomatoes and cucumbers.
[20:06 03/09/2004] <@craig> Craig's Tanks Part Duex? ;-)
[20:06 03/09/2004] <@Jessica> Whenever you are ready, craig ;-)
[20:06 03/09/2004] <@Jessica> si senor ;-D
[20:07 03/09/2004] <@craig> This is probably going to be the shortest chat on record and one that raises more questions than answers...
[20:07 03/09/2004] <@craig> I think tonight I'll just give the history of one tank, the 20H in the kitchen that runs with no water changes.
[20:09 03/09/2004] <@craig> Somewhere in the midst of the rising addiction to keeping fish I bought a 20 gallon fish tank for the kitchen, Thomas Barr gave me an interesting idea for a fish tank that I decided to try..
[20:10 03/09/2004] <@craig> When I first got the tank, I set it up with that wonderful species of plants called plasticus filamentous..
[20:10 03/09/2004] <@craig> Yes, I said it. Plastic plants.
[20:11 03/09/2004] <@craig> The original inhabitants of the tank were (and are still there to this day) cherry barbs and a rubberlip pleco.
[20:12 03/09/2004] <@craig> I did nothing special with the tank other than let the fish do their thing, it received partial water changes about once every 10 days.
[20:13 03/09/2004] <@craig> After about 6 months is where the Barr method kicked in, the initial planting looked something like this:
[20:13 03/09/2004] <@craig> http://www.2cah.com/pets/20planted2.JPG
[20:14 03/09/2004] <@craig> That picture was taken roughly 18 months ago.
[20:14 03/09/2004] <@craig> Since then, that tank has had exactly one water change. It and its inhabitants have survived on nothing more than topping off the tank and filter pad changes.
[20:15 03/09/2004] <@craig> The fish load has varied greatly over that year and a half.
[20:15 03/09/2004] <@craig> At one point in time it was the home for 8 cherry barbs, the rubberlip pleco and 13 botia sidthimunki.
[20:16 03/09/2004] <@craig> The current fawna list is 7 cherry barbs, the rubberlip pleco and 2 blue rams.
[20:17 03/09/2004] <@craig> The plant list is somewhat similar to what was shown in the picture above, green hygro, anubias nana, rotala and algae balls.
[20:18 03/09/2004] <@craig> The tank water parameters are less than spectacular.. Ammonia 0. nitrite 0. Nitrates average in the 20-30ppm range.
[20:20 03/09/2004] <@craig> I do have the odd spike to 40ppm on nitrates, but it never lasts long, topping off the tank replenishes what ever trace minerals have been exhausted in the tank and resumes plant growth again.
[20:20 03/09/2004] <@craig> Plant growth is not phenominal.
[20:21 03/09/2004] <@craig> Its a nice low maintenance tank, that can support fish life.
[20:21 03/09/2004] <@craig> If you are interested in a tank like this one you have a few choices.
[20:22 03/09/2004] <@craig> Set the tank up and let the substrate mature as I did, or set the tank up using mulm from another tank as the first layer of the substrate.
[20:23 03/09/2004] <@craig> There are two keys here, one is a mature substrate and two is heavy initial planting.
[20:23 03/09/2004] <@craig> "Heavy" being 70-80 percent substrate coverage.
[20:24 03/09/2004] <@craig> I'm not very well prepared tonight, but if you want to know why I suggest a mature substrate, please google on "redox potential".
[20:25 03/09/2004] <@craig> In a nutshell what that mouthfull refers to is the ability of the substrate to reduce organic compounds to a state where the plants can fix them.
[20:26 03/09/2004] <@craig> Mulm from an established tank jumpstarts the process, an established substrate merely does what it needs to do upon initial planting.
[20:27 03/09/2004] <@craig> An -excellent- substitute for mulm from an established tank is sphagnum (note the spelling) peat moss.
[20:28 03/09/2004] <@craig> Again, I'll refer to the above suggestion for redox potential as to why and let it go at that.
[20:29 03/09/2004] <@craig> That tank has been a joy to have, as it more or less runs itself with no maintenance from me other than the occasional splash of water to keep the filter noise down.
[20:30 03/09/2004] <@craig> With that, I'll let the questions begin..
[20:30 03/09/2004] <@craig> (I know there HAS to be a quite a few.)
[20:31 03/09/2004] <@Jessica> if you have a question type /query jessica i have a question
[20:31 03/09/2004] <@Jessica> or double click my name and tell me
[20:32 03/09/2004] <@Jessica> or, we can open the floor and let you ask that way, lol
[20:32 03/09/2004] *** Jessica sets mode: -m
[20:32 03/09/2004] * @craig dons asbestos undies
[20:32 03/09/2004] <@craig> Let'er rip. ;-)
[20:32 03/09/2004] <@Jessica> keith has one, repost :-)
[20:33 03/09/2004] <@Jessica> 6:32:<KeithW> Do you ever worry about something happening to the tank where someting bad gets into the tank? Couldn't old tank syndrome happen if you try to change the water?
[20:34 03/09/2004] <@craig> I simply don't fix what isn't broken Keith, I do monitor the water stats in the tank.
[20:36 03/09/2004] <@craig> I wish I was better prepared for this tonight, but if you will search the archives for the Aquatic Plants Digest, you will see numerous posts from Thomas Barr on this method of tank setup.
[20:36 03/09/2004] <@craig> http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/
[20:37 03/09/2004] <@craig> The method is highly dependent on achieving a balance of plant growth with a moderate fish load.
[20:38 03/09/2004] <@Jessica> keith, you can post questios here now.. not to me anymore as i removed the 'moderated' tag . :-)
[20:38 03/09/2004] <@Jessica> 6:37:<KeithW> Do the plants remove all TDS and DOC's. Have you ever tried testing with a TDS meter just for the hey?
[20:38 03/09/2004] <@craig> No I haven't.
[20:39 03/09/2004] <KeithW> That would be interesting to see if it changes or stays static.
[20:39 03/09/2004] <@craig> The fish more or less speak for themselves, the only fish deaths that occur in that tank are from old age.
[20:40 03/09/2004] <russ> Great presentation Craig. You have achieved in that tank what folks should be striving for....balance. The filters, etc. are just a redundent backup.
[20:41 03/09/2004] <@craig> I just wish I was better informed on the "why" of how it works.
[20:41 03/09/2004] <Noname> Nice one craig, from what I saw, ^_^
[20:41 03/09/2004] <KeithW> Agreed, nice job Craig.
[20:42 03/09/2004] <@Jessica> Thanks, craig :D
[20:42 03/09/2004] <@JP> The chat start yet?
[20:42 03/09/2004] <@craig> When I had my kuhli loaches in there I let the dying leaves accumulate on the surface of the substrate, they loved it.
[20:42 03/09/2004] <russ> understanding redox is tough. Hard to easily explain all the workings of it, but you did a good job in your capsulized version:-)
[20:43 03/09/2004] <@craig> If it helps any, a quick laymans explanation of "redox" potential is the ability to reduce or break down carbon based compounds.
[20:43 03/09/2004] <KeithW> DOC's?
[20:44 03/09/2004] <@craig> Yes, most DOCs are carbon based compounds.
[20:45 03/09/2004] <russ> DOCs can be 'bound' by molecular sieving, such as protien skimming, but in a blanced tank where the plants gain the ability to utilize them, they can chemically break them down also
[20:46 03/09/2004] <@craig> What Russ said. ;-)
[20:47 03/09/2004] <@craig> Beyond the substrate, its a matter of finding a good balance of plants.
[20:47 03/09/2004] <KeithW> It makes sense for DOC's. I just wonder about TDS, becuase aren't most of those metals? I know plants take in some like iron, But what about zinc, copper, and magnesium? Biology was never my strong point but as an adult it interest me now.
[20:47 03/09/2004] <@craig> Anubias, cryptocoryne and hygro are good.
[20:47 03/09/2004] <Noname> I need to get my sleep in sync for school, good bye everyone, ^_^
[20:47 03/09/2004] <@craig> The metals are -trace- elements that the plants will use.
[20:49 03/09/2004] <@craig> Keep asking questions, my mountain dew is empty, I need a refill.
[20:50 03/09/2004] <russ> there are so many variables in the process that it has taken about 100 years of fishkeeping to gather. While we keep employing the latest techno gear and plastic and chemical resourses that money can buy and companies crank out to sell us, the simplest ways just seem to go by, well, by the wayside.
[20:52 03/09/2004] <@craig> IOW, let the plants do their thing? :-D
[20:52 03/09/2004] <KeithW> Is your entire sub strate covered? If not, do you worry about anerboic (sp?) conditions?
[20:52 03/09/2004] <russ> I think what Craig has accomplished in this tank and is trying to tell us (correct me if I'm off) is that starting out right and utilizing the tank's natural process WILL work. All the other support equipment is just for emergenies:-)
[20:53 03/09/2004] <@craig> Keith, I have about 70% coverage.
[20:54 03/09/2004] <@craig> I started out with a LOT of hygro in that tank initially.. Which after scouring the tank for what it could use to grow eventually died back and the slower growers (anubias, cryptocoryne) took over.
[20:55 03/09/2004] <@craig> Russ, you are quite correct, that tank ran for close to 12 hours with no filtration what so ever when the power went out one day. The fish looked almost offended when I started the filter back up on it.
[20:56 03/09/2004] <russ> :-D
[20:56 03/09/2004] <KeithW> anaerobic...If i'm not mistaken it does help to reduce Nitrates if the top layers are aerobic. Some SW tanks strive for that condition with Corals.
[20:56 03/09/2004] <@craig> Substrate depth plays a role here as does the root systems of the plants growing in the tank.
[20:56 03/09/2004] <russ> I don't think the pet industry is going to go broke if we start a All Natual movement:-D
[20:57 03/09/2004] <@craig> If you will notice, the plants that I mentioned above, with the exception of hygro, grow extensive root systems.
[20:58 03/09/2004] <@craig> The enzymes and bacteria that are present in the root systems break down/reduce/utilize what ever gathers in the substrate.
[20:58 03/09/2004] <KeithW> I think the roots under the plants will not go anaerobic, just the open areas, unless the roots have grown to those parts.
[20:58 03/09/2004] <@Jessica> ever pulled up a sword or crypt?
[20:59 03/09/2004] <@craig> Ditto Jess. :-D
[20:59 03/09/2004] <KeithW> Long, I'm sure?
[20:59 03/09/2004] <@craig> Especially one that has been growing for 2 years..
[20:59 03/09/2004] <@Jessica> their roots cover a huge area.. :-)
[20:59 03/09/2004] <@Jessica> i have swords in my 125gallon that have roots that cover the entire tank
[21:00 03/09/2004] <russ> In time, it may also become necessary to trim roots
[21:00 03/09/2004] <@craig> I do that by propogation, the plants let me know..
[21:01 03/09/2004] <russ> ;-)
[21:01 03/09/2004] <russ> part of the 'process' of the hobby:-)
[21:01 03/09/2004] <@craig> I've said this before, but it bears repeating. Look at your tanks, they will let you know what is going on.
[21:03 03/09/2004] <KeithW> Guys and Gals, I gotta go. Thanks Craig for answering my questions.
[21:03 03/09/2004] <@craig> It also doesn't hurt to spend a day or two reading the Aquatic Plants Digest. ;-)
[21:03 03/09/2004] <@craig> Take care Keith.
[21:03 03/09/2004] <@Jessica> thanks for coming keith
[21:03 03/09/2004] <@Jessica> have a good night
[21:03 03/09/2004] <megan> bye keith :)
[21:03 03/09/2004] <russ> take care Kieth:-)
[21:04 03/09/2004] <@craig> I've become a walking, talking, typing advertisement for the APD. :-D
[21:04 03/09/2004] <@Jessica> ;-)
[21:05 03/09/2004] <@craig> Tom is still active and in the recent weeks, George Booth and Roger Miller have made appearances.
[21:07 03/09/2004] <@craig> As a matter of fact, since I brought up the subject of redox. George Booth's April Fools prank does a lot to explain it..
[21:07 03/09/2004] <@Jessica> i missed that one
[21:07 03/09/2004] <@craig> It has to do with substrate heating, but if you read between the lines..
[21:07 03/09/2004] <@craig> Jess, its on the Krib..
[21:07 03/09/2004] <@Jessica> ah, ok
[21:08 03/09/2004] <@craig> http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/People/Booth/fool.html
[21:08 03/09/2004] <@Jessica> thanks
[21:09 03/09/2004] <@craig> Anything to get a link on the books. ;-)
[21:10 03/09/2004] <@craig> I'm going to drop a few names to look out for when reading about plants and tank ecology..
[21:11 03/09/2004] <@craig> The venerable Thomas Barr, Karen Randall, George Booth, Roger Miller, Scott Heiber.. Look for those names, read what they have to say.
[21:12 03/09/2004] <@craig> It won't all make sense, but if you can gleam even a small bit of something that clicks you will be well on your way.
[21:12 03/09/2004] <@craig> I'm babbling again, but what the hey, that's what I am good at. :-D
[21:13 03/09/2004] <@Jessica> lol.. was reading ;-)
[21:14 03/09/2004] <russ> Hey Sully,,just in time;-)
[21:14 03/09/2004] <@craig> You didn't miss much Sully, just me babbling again. ;-)
[21:14 03/09/2004] <sully> lol--barely--dial-up is slow
[21:15 03/09/2004] <@Jessica> anything else to babble about, craig? ;-D
[21:15 03/09/2004] <@craig> The depends on the crowd. ;-)
[21:16 03/09/2004] <@JP> I could get rowdy.
[21:16 03/09/2004] <sully> go for it
[21:17 03/09/2004] <russ> Sully, Craig gave a great presentation on simplicity, then mentioned 'redox'...:-D
[21:17 03/09/2004] <sully> am i an hour late?
[21:17 03/09/2004] <@Jessica> yes. lol
[21:17 03/09/2004] <@craig> Look at the clock Sully..
[21:17 03/09/2004] <@Jessica> its 8pm your time ;-)
[21:17 03/09/2004] <russ> nah, just a little under 7 days early:-D
[21:17 03/09/2004] <sully> this whole indiana time zone crap confuses the hell out of me
[21:17 03/09/2004] <@Jessica> lol
[21:18 03/09/2004] <@Jessica> sully, it will always be 8 for you ;-D
[21:18 03/09/2004] <sully> okay--i will try not to be stupid too.
[21:18 03/09/2004] <russ> are you and Craig not in the same time zones?
[21:18 03/09/2004] <@Jessica> they are ;-)
[21:18 03/09/2004] <@craig> We are..
[21:19 03/09/2004] <sully> yes we are--i do not know why but i thought it was 9:00 Indiana time--and 8:00 edt
[21:19 03/09/2004] <@Jessica> that would not work ;-D
[21:19 03/09/2004] <russ> I hate the changes in time zones we go through here
[21:19 03/09/2004] <@craig> Forgot to dodge one of those Soccer balls when officiating a match?
[21:19 03/09/2004] <sully> no it is a congenital thing
[21:20 03/09/2004] <sully> stupidity runs in the family
[21:20 03/09/2004] <russ> :B
[21:20 03/09/2004] <sully> :B\
[21:20 03/09/2004] <sully> all i was doing ç}ª:oo was making killer omlet and thinking about getting to chat--lol
[21:21 03/09/2004] <russ> Craig....any way to to provide a link to your Part 1 from this transcript?
[21:21 03/09/2004] <russ> once posted?
[21:22 03/09/2004] <@craig> Sure, once my secretary gets back. :-D
[21:22 03/09/2004] <russ> lol
[21:22 03/09/2004] <russ> she needs a signal splitter
[21:22 03/09/2004] <@craig> She needs DSL or cable. ;-)
[21:22 03/09/2004] <@JP> http://www.badmanstropicalfish.com/stories/chat/chat_8-20-04.html
[21:22 03/09/2004] * @JP snickers.
[21:23 03/09/2004] <@Jessica> :-P
[21:23 03/09/2004] * @Jessica will accept donations to get me dsl or cable
[21:23 03/09/2004] <@craig> Jess..
[21:23 03/09/2004] <@craig> [09/03 21:21] <russ> Craig....any way to to provide a link to your Part 1 from this transcript?
[21:23 03/09/2004] <@craig> [09/03 21:21] *** Jessica (~Lady_Jai@216-203-252-246-phx-01.cvx.algx.net) has left IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[21:23 03/09/2004] <@craig> [09/03 21:21] <russ> once posted?
[21:23 03/09/2004] <@craig> [09/03 21:22] <@craig> Sure, once my secretary gets back. :-D
[21:23 03/09/2004] <@craig> [09/03 21:22] <russ> lol
[21:23 03/09/2004] <@craig> [09/03 21:22] <russ> she needs a signal splitter
[21:23 03/09/2004] <@craig> [09/03 21:22] *** Jessica (~Lady_Jai@216-203-250-229-phx-01.cvx.algx.net) has joined #fishchat
[21:23 03/09/2004] <@craig> [
[21:23 03/09/2004] <@Jessica> lol
[21:24 03/09/2004] <@Jessica> looks like craig handled it :-)
[21:24 03/09/2004] <@Jessica> er
[21:24 03/09/2004] <@Jessica> JP
[21:24 03/09/2004] <russ> that was Bizaro Superman talking up there:-D
[21:24 03/09/2004] <@Jessica> shee
[21:24 03/09/2004] <@JP> ...
[21:24 03/09/2004] <@Jessica> sorry to both guys..
[21:25 03/09/2004] <@craig> Do we have a victim, err, speaker for next week?
[21:25 03/09/2004] <@Jessica> nope
[21:26 03/09/2004] <russ> what about Keith?
[21:26 03/09/2004] <@craig> Okie, looks like I am gonna bore folks with the details of the carbon cycle then..
[21:26 03/09/2004] <russ> JP, I think you need to work on him a little more;-)
[21:26 03/09/2004] <@JP> He blew me off.
[21:26 03/09/2004] <@JP> "I'm not good on chats."
[21:27 03/09/2004] <russ> carbon cycle :-O
[21:27 03/09/2004] <@JP> gasp
[21:27 03/09/2004] <@craig> Ptui, it ain't that hard.. Just babble aimlessly like I do..
[21:27 03/09/2004] * @JP schedules a cold for next week.
[21:27 03/09/2004] <@Jessica> lol
[21:28 03/09/2004] <russ> carbon is one of those love/hate relationships
[21:28 03/09/2004] <@craig> Its the root of all ebil. :-D
[21:31 03/09/2004] <@craig> Lets close up shop here, since the chat seems to have moved back to the regular channel anyways. :-)