Chat transcripts

[20:02 24/09/2004] <@craig> Alrighty.. Without further adieu..
[20:02 24/09/2004] <@craig> Good evening everyone! Welcome to Live! Fishchat!
[20:03 24/09/2004] <@craig> Tonight our guest speaker is one of Badman's very own, Russ. His topic for discussion this evening is: Quarantine and Hospital tanks.
[20:03 24/09/2004] <@craig> Russ, take it away!
[20:03 24/09/2004] <+russ> Thank you :-)
[20:04 24/09/2004] <+russ> Good evening and thank you for allowing me again to share some of my experiences in aquariology. Tonight I'll be talking about Quarantine and hospital tanks.
[20:05 24/09/2004] <+russ> There are many similarities and also distinct differences in how hospital and quarantine tanks are managed.
[20:05 24/09/2004] <+russ> While a quarantine tank may very well turn into a hospital tank over the course of a fish' acclimation, a hospital tank is employed for the purpose of treating fish for illness or other physiological damage.
[20:06 24/09/2004] <+russ> A quarantine tank is primarily utilized for acclimation of new fishes to the water conditions they can expect to encounter in one' main tank, or destination tank. Similarly, one observes their fish during their acclimation period for any signs of stress or disease.
[20:07 24/09/2004] <+russ> In addition, a quarantine tank can be used for both aquatic plants and fish. Although, the quarantine period between fish and plants can very for plants from a matter of a few hours for plants, it can be up to 40 days for fish. I might point out that new fish and plants should not be quarantined together in the same vessel at the same time.
[20:08 24/09/2004] <+russ> The most important thing to keep in mind when employing the use of a hospital or quarantine tank is, know your fish , know your chemical, and know your water.
[20:09 24/09/2004] <+russ> Hospital Tanks: It' a little difficult to talk about managing and maintaining a hospital tank without incorporating ancillary info and other considerations. Some of these are:
[20:09 24/09/2004] <+russ> Tank size needed.
[20:10 24/09/2004] <+russ> Type fish.
[20:10 24/09/2004] <+russ> Tank set up.
[20:10 24/09/2004] <+russ> Filtration.
[20:10 24/09/2004] <+russ> Water parameters.
[20:11 24/09/2004] <+russ> Medication characteristics.
[20:11 24/09/2004] <+russ> Personal resources and time allocation.
[20:11 24/09/2004] <+russ> Tank size needed is pretty much regulated by the type and size of the fish that is going to be treated. Obviously, a 10 inch fish is not going to fare well in a 10gal tank.
[20:12 24/09/2004] <+russ> Tank set up is pretty much straight forward. A bare-bottomed tank containing an up-turned clay flower pot is really all that is needed under water. This would provide some security for the fish in a strange, new environment. Overhead lighting for the tank is not needed if there is sufficient light to be able to observe your fish. If not, then a small overhead light (preferably florescent) should be used.
[20:13 24/09/2004] <+russ> Filtration is also pretty much straight forward. A small hang on power filter with mechanical media is all that is required. Since meds are likely to be administered, they would render the bio media useless. 100% water changes should be made at least once each day. Sometimes more .
[20:14 24/09/2004] <+russ> Water parameters should be new, clean tap water. Unlike quarantine tank parameters, which will be discussed below, dechlorinated tap water heated and maintained at a desired temperature is recommended. Again, keep in mind that managing a hospital tank will require 100% water changes once or more each day.
[20:14 24/09/2004] <+russ> Hardness and pH should then be adjusted to match water that the fish is being transported from. Water parameters will have a affect on certain medications. I'll list some examples shortly.
[20:15 24/09/2004] <+russ> Medication characteristics in relation to your water parameters will have an impact on the medication effectiveness. (Gratzek, John B., DR, University of Georgia, Vet Medicine), "The pH of the water during therapy may also be of practical importance in antibiotic absorption."
[20:16 24/09/2004] <+russ> "Depending on the chemical composition of the antibiotic molecule, it will dissociate (ionize) at either high or low pH, and in this form it is less likely to be absorbed by the fish." "For example, a naturally acidic molecule such as naladixic acid will remain non-iodized is slightly acid water, and absorption will be expected to be maximal, if pH is adjusted to just under 7."
[20:17 24/09/2004] <+russ> (in slightly acid water)
[20:17 24/09/2004] <+russ> "Water hardness also may affect antibiotic absorption." "For example, calcium ions in hard water bind to tetracyclines, resulting in failure or the antibiotic to be absorbed." "Solutions to this problem include either increasing the dosage or softening the water."
[20:18 24/09/2004] <+russ> Personal resources and time allocation would fall back to something that I discussed in a previous chat presentation (Non-growth ). Hospital tanks need to be 'micro-managed'. One must be able to dedicate the extra time involved in its management.
[20:18 24/09/2004] <+russ> Since most antibiotics are effectively absorbed by fishes within a relatively short period of time, 100% percent of water should be changed as often as two, but at least once each day during treatments. Treatments should continue several days after symptoms have dissipated and fish are acting back to normal.
[20:19 24/09/2004] <+russ> And of coarse, one should be able to afford the costs of employing a hospital tank when the need arises. Tank, extra heater, meds, water conditioners, etc.
[20:20 24/09/2004] <+russ> Quarantine tank(s): is a aquarium that imposes a period of isolation to lesson the risk of a contaminant which may spread to the main tank. In a quarantine tank, fish are allowed to acclimate and or recuperate from the stress of transport.
[20:21 24/09/2004] <+russ> Managing a quarantine tank is not difficult and is only limited by your personal resources and time allotted for the acclimation of your fish or plants. I guess it can't be that easy to sum up, so I'll provide some ideas for set up and management of a quarantine tank for your consideration:
[20:22 24/09/2004] <+russ> Size tank needed
[20:22 24/09/2004] <+russ> Type of fish isolated/acclimated
[20:22 24/09/2004] <+russ> Set up
[20:22 24/09/2004] <+russ> Filtration
[20:22 24/09/2004] <+russ> Water parameters
[20:23 24/09/2004] <+russ> Personal resources and time allocation
[20:23 24/09/2004] <+russ> Tank size needed: is generally 25 % the size of the destination tank. This may also have to be redressed to accommodate the size, type of fish, and/or the amount of fishes to be quarantined
[20:24 24/09/2004] <+russ> Type of fish: would have to be of reasonable and practical species that is considered a aquarium fish. In other words, one that is likely to be kept by hobbyists and reasonably available for sale or trade.
[20:24 24/09/2004] <+russ> Or common sense, which ever comes first
[20:25 24/09/2004] <+russ> Set Up: If you keep your main tank water maintained well, then I could personally see no reason not to fill at least 50% of your quarantine tank with water from your main tank. Top off with dechlorinated tap water and heat to the temperature of your main tank.
[20:26 24/09/2004] <+russ> A single layer of neutral gravel can be laid on the bottom so fish will not lose their perspective. Plants that do not need to be rooted can also be placed in the tank.
[20:26 24/09/2004] <+russ> (A few plants from main tank, not new ones)
[20:27 24/09/2004] <+russ> Filtration: is a matter of pre planning. Biological media should already have been prepared and ready for placement in a power filter or canister filter. The use of a under gravel filter is not recommended for a quarantine tank due to the possibility of it becoming a hospital tank over the course of acclimation.
[20:28 24/09/2004] <+russ> Water Parameters: recommendations here are going to get me in trouble here with a lot of folks.Water Parameters: recommendations here are going to get me in trouble here with a lot of folks.
[20:29 24/09/2004] <+russ> Because you are acclimating a fish to the conditions of your main tank water, in effect, what you are doing at the same time is 'adjusting' the fish to surroundings that it will be moved too.
[20:29 24/09/2004] <+russ> As you monitor water parameters in your main tank, you must also monitor current conditions in the quarantine tank. Check before and after a water change in the main tank, then increase or decrease quarantine tank conditions accordingly.
[20:30 24/09/2004] <+russ> Water 'adjustments' can be made with water conditioning products such as buffers and pH adjusters. It is short term, so no great harm will become of this. Ok, I just said it..lol. Its ok to use chemical additives to the change water for your quarantine tank.
[20:31 24/09/2004] <+russ> Personal resources and Time Allocation: depends again on your power, authorization, , need and desire. Quarantine tanks do not need micro-managing as hospital tanks do, but they do require a commitment of your time and discipline. That discipline being not jumping the gun by introducing your fish too soon. How soon though really depends on the original condition of the fish.
[20:31 24/09/2004] <+russ> Marine fishes generally take 3 times longer for acclimation and adjustment than freshwater fishes.
[20:32 24/09/2004] <+russ> Freshwater fishes should be allowed to acclimated at least 10 to 14 days. This gives one time to observe the fish. Make sure it is eating properly. Making sure enough time has allotted
[20:33 24/09/2004] <+russ> for any parasites or other pathogens will not take hold or are not being transported. In this respect, you are not only watching the fish, you are watching the water also.
[20:34 24/09/2004] <+russ> Know your fish and know your chemical and know your water
[20:34 24/09/2004] <+russ> Thank you again, for allowing me to share some of my experiences. That is all I have for this evening. Ready to be bombarded with questions.........
[20:34 24/09/2004] <@craig> Thank you Russ for being here this evening.
[20:35 24/09/2004] <@craig> Everyone play nice, I'm going to skip right to the open discussion tonight.
[20:35 24/09/2004] <@Jessica> excellent russ, thank you so much. this will be useful as a reference. I do have a question on the 100% water changes for the hospital tanks. How do you recommend going about that?
[20:36 24/09/2004] <+russ> It may have to be done in two steps. One long step, 90%, then fill to 10% more, then drain 10%.
[20:37 24/09/2004] <@Jessica> so its not quite 100% but pretty close, :-D
[20:37 24/09/2004] <+russ> as close to a complete change as possible.
[20:37 24/09/2004] <Hoots> do you recommend using sponge filters for biological filtration?
[20:37 24/09/2004] <+russ> I miss spoke when indicating 100%.. I should have said 'complete'
[20:38 24/09/2004] <@craig> When everyone else gets done, I'll chime in a few words on new plants. ;-)
[20:38 24/09/2004] <+russ> In a hospital tank? No. No bio filtration is necessary when changing that much water that often.
[20:39 24/09/2004] <Hoots> no I meant in a quarantine tank sorry
[20:39 24/09/2004] <+russ> Remember, you are not limited to how much you should change. It could be four times a day if needed
[20:39 24/09/2004] <+russ> Spongies in a quarantine tank? Sure
[20:41 24/09/2004] <+russ> I had 1 quarantine tank for each 6 main tanks and it was eaier to use sponge filters in there
[20:41 24/09/2004] <@craig> I'll fuel the fire about plant introduction now.
[20:42 24/09/2004] <+russ> fire away
[20:42 24/09/2004] <@craig> New plants do not necessarily need to be quarantined. A 1:19 bleach/water solution, or a mild potassium permangenate solution can be used as a dip. If the bleach/PP doesn't get it, you don't want it.
[20:43 24/09/2004] <+russ> thats very true. Potassium perm can get a little messy though and will stain stuff green, so be careful with that
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[20:43 24/09/2004] <@craig> Usually brown, but yes it can stain..
[20:43 24/09/2004] <@craig> A throw away bowl or other container can be used for the dip.
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[20:43 24/09/2004] <+russ> I'm practically color blind :-D
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[20:44 24/09/2004] <@craig> Malachite/Analine green, do stain green. ;-)
[20:44 24/09/2004] <+russ> yep
[20:44 24/09/2004] <@jessica> especially in high or long-term exposure amounts
[20:44 24/09/2004] <@craig> Dips on plants are especially useful for disease eradication, algae removal and snail control.
[20:45 24/09/2004] <+russ> there was a aluminum compound mixture I was trying to find, but couldn't locate earlier
[20:46 24/09/2004] <@craig> Don't recall hearing anything about aluminum..
[20:46 24/09/2004] <+russ> I'm still hunting...
[20:47 24/09/2004] <Shay> Russ, thank you. With regard to the QT tank, is there another option to acclimate the fish to your main tank's water conditions than the use of chemicals? For example, could you introduce some of the main tank water in days before transfer?
[20:49 24/09/2004] <+russ> Yes, Upon initial set up I recommended a transfer of 50%. This, providing there are no bad things happening in the main tank
[20:49 24/09/2004] <@craig> What is the most common problem with quarantine tanks? :-)
[20:50 24/09/2004] <+russ> Disccipline...turning them into more 'main tanks' :-D
[20:50 24/09/2004] <Shay> lol
[20:50 24/09/2004] <@craig> Exactly. ;-)
[20:51 24/09/2004] <+russ> Something one must take into consideration is that a Quarantine tank could very well turn into a hospitla tank before fishes are transfered to the main tank
[20:52 24/09/2004] <Shay> Would you recommend having both a QT and a hospital tank on hand then?
[20:52 24/09/2004] <+russ> Once treatment is accomplished, it can then be turned back into a rehab and quarantine tank:-)
[20:54 24/09/2004] <+russ> Shay, I guess its up to personal preferrences and one's resources. It could certainly be that way, but most folks simply do not have the room or time to manage it. Or, actually need more than one to accomplish both
[20:55 24/09/2004] <+russ> Is there a general rule of thumb on how many one should have? I don't know. It depends on your set up(s)
[20:55 24/09/2004] <@craig> In either case, forethought and some planning are necessary.
[20:55 24/09/2004] <+russ> I would think anyone who keeps marine fish(es) will have a QT on hand;-)
[20:56 24/09/2004] <+russ> Yes craig...thats one of the ten fish commandments
[20:56 24/09/2004] <@craig> For what they cost and the usual short refund times involved. I concur for SW/marine.
[20:57 24/09/2004] <+russ> Yep. When one gets into marine, there is a considerable investment involved. May as well make it worth it.
[20:57 24/09/2004] <@craig> Although, some species of freshwater fish can be just as costly, if not infinitely more fragile.
[20:58 24/09/2004] <+russ> I would personally consider it more than an ancillary thought or consideration
[20:59 24/09/2004] <@craig> Cost yes, but to bring this full circle, the more fragile the fish the more the need for proper QT procedures.
[20:59 24/09/2004] <+russ> You bet! Craig is right on on that one:-)
[21:00 24/09/2004] <Shay> Fortunatly I have not needed a hospital tank probably thanks to my QT tank.
[21:00 24/09/2004] <+russ> Theres a living example:-)
[21:00 24/09/2004] <+russ> Here is another thought......
[21:01 24/09/2004] <+russ> How may time have you had to treat fish in your main tank?
[21:01 24/09/2004] <@craig> I have..
[21:01 24/09/2004] <+russ> Its a pain and a half
[21:02 24/09/2004] <@craig> Not to mention it can get extremely costly..
[21:02 24/09/2004] <+russ> I have not had to treat a single fish in any of my main tanks in approx 30 years.
[21:02 24/09/2004] <@jessica> yup
[21:05 24/09/2004] <Shay> Thank you. I've learned a lot once again. Goodnight everyone.
[21:05 24/09/2004] <@jessica> good night shay
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[21:06 24/09/2004] <+russ> there are some some sporozoan parasites or mycobacterial infections that are not treatable and it is possible that they may still be introduced into your tank even after QT precautions have been taken
[21:06 24/09/2004] <@craig> Here's another tack for this discussion Russ..
[21:06 24/09/2004] <@craig> What are your recommendations for those people that do not have the means or resources for QT tanks?
[21:08 24/09/2004] <+russ> To stick with a basic set up. Do not go overboard with it. Select fish very carefully and not expensive ones.
[21:09 24/09/2004] <+russ> Get good practical equipment also
[21:09 24/09/2004] <@craig> Might you elaborate on careful fish selection?
[21:10 24/09/2004] <+russ> I have noticed folks that seem to spend alot on equipment and rather pricy fish, but don't have the extra resources for a 1-20 gal QT tank
[21:10 24/09/2004] <@jessica> sometimes it is space that is the issue?
[21:11 24/09/2004] <+russ> Craig, carefull fish selection would be healthy as possible fish. Also hardier fishes. Such as danios, etc, that can take an acclimation or tank break-in. Also many tetras can withstand dangerous effects of nitrites;-)
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[21:13 24/09/2004] <+russ> Jess,,,space is considered a resource. If one has space for several tanks, then one should be able to find space for one more extra
[21:13 24/09/2004] <@craig> I wasn't referring to initial cycling. :-)
[21:13 24/09/2004] <+russ> Craig, I just threw that one in for good measure
[21:13 24/09/2004] <@jessica> true. i guess i was thinking of people with one or 2 tanks
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[21:14 24/09/2004] <+russ> Jess, yes, thats probably 80% of all tropical fish keepers
[21:15 24/09/2004] <@craig> My QT has turned into a more or less permanent home for a tetra with lymphocytis (sp?)..
[21:15 24/09/2004] <Hoots> russ, how do you go about qt'ing fish that depend solely on a food source from the display tank, ie otos, manderin dragonets, etc...
[21:16 24/09/2004] <+russ> If an individual has set up two 20 gal tanks, then it is assumed that their fishes are small enough to be ok in those. Fishes could easily be hospitalized or QT'd in a five or ten gal in that case.. Hardly any room for one of those
[21:16 24/09/2004] <@jessica> true
[21:17 24/09/2004] <+russ> Heather, Provide same food.
[21:17 24/09/2004] <@jessica> i've seen folks with a single 125 with a couple large fish in it from time to time. kinda hard to maintain a properQT/hospital for a tank that size
[21:19 24/09/2004] <+russ> A hospital tank would be a little rough. Depending on the infection or disease, it may be possble to use the 'short-term' bath rather than the long-term bath inside one's tank
[21:19 24/09/2004] <+russ> or dipping
[21:19 24/09/2004] <+russ> Heather, I've never encountered an oto that would not eat an algae wafer:-)
[21:20 24/09/2004] <@jessica> what about salt fishies who eat stuff in the sand?
[21:21 24/09/2004] <+russ> Provide some sand mixture from the main tank, if the main tank is in good shape
[21:21 24/09/2004] <@jessica> ah, ok
[21:22 24/09/2004] <Hoots> thanks russ
[21:22 24/09/2004] <@jessica> yes, indeed, thanks for your time, russ
[21:23 24/09/2004] <@craig> Time to close up shop for the evening?
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[21:23 24/09/2004] <+russ> If things go south in a QT tank, immediate action must be taken with priority to the main critters in that tank.. Items may have to be removed and the inside of the tank redressed or modified to provide the best chance of medication effectiveness
[21:23 24/09/2004] <@craig> Go Russ.. :-D
[21:24 24/09/2004] <+russ> That would include everything previously mentioned in a initial hospital set up:-)
[21:27 24/09/2004] <+russ> I forgot to mention taking care of equipment such as nets, etc., when managing a hospital tank or QT tank. Things for these tanks should be dedicated for those tanks
[21:28 24/09/2004] <+russ> I know,, picky picky :-D Resterilization would work also.. No need to duplicate everything on another scale;-)
[21:29 24/09/2004] <+russ> Craig mentioned earlier about prior planning .
[21:29 24/09/2004] <+russ> Part of any plan should provide for a protocol of what to do in a situation.
[21:30 24/09/2004] <@craig> Just to be clear, prior planning is more than just bookmarking the disease section of Badman's message boards. :-)
[21:30 24/09/2004] <@jessica> lol
[21:31 24/09/2004] <+russ> Planit and write it down. I've been keeping fish for 44+ years and having something to go by, no matter how often or commonplace it may seem, does hep
[21:31 24/09/2004] <+russ> help
[21:32 24/09/2004] <+russ> Craig is right on that. No matter how well it is laid out out. If your computer is not working that day or week, then what does one do?
[21:33 24/09/2004] <@craig> In my case, I move to another computer, but your point is well taken. Keep your reference handy.
[21:34 24/09/2004] <@samantha> that's why I have the phone numbers of a few badman's members ;)
[21:34 24/09/2004] <+russ> Good point:-D
[21:35 24/09/2004] <@craig> Here's one for the books..
[21:35 24/09/2004] <+russ> :-)
[21:35 24/09/2004] <@craig> If you had a "survival kit" for fish, what would be in it?
[21:38 24/09/2004] <+russ> A bottle of Amquel, a bottle of Novaqua, a bottle of Rid Ich+, Some freeze dried food stuffs, a heater and thermometer, a gal bucket, a cheap gravel vac, a new 5# bag of gravel, a small clay flower pot, all packed inside a spare ten gal tank
[21:39 24/09/2004] <@samantha> do things like amquel, novaqua, rid ich, etc. expire?
[21:39 24/09/2004] <+russ> and a note to myself asking me, why are you using this?
[21:40 24/09/2004] <+russ> rid ich+ may, I think the Novaqua and Amquel last a good five years or more
[21:42 24/09/2004] <+russ> Craig, should we move to the other side now?
[21:42 24/09/2004] <@craig> Sure, unless anyone else has something they would like to add..
[21:43 24/09/2004] <Hoots> thank you so much russ
[21:43 24/09/2004] <+russ> Thank you:-)
[21:43 24/09/2004] <@jessica> thanks russ :-D
[21:43 24/09/2004] <+russ> :-)